ec12/iec12

Chat regarding International EC12 operations, country organizations, event gathering and proposed alliances.

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ec12/iec12

Postby Nautic12 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:05 am

i notice ref to an Iec12 as apposed to THE ec12 any basic difference
is the Iec12 still sailed and what locations ?[?]
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Postby Rick West » Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:15 am

Bob,
The International EC12 class specifications agreements were never completed. It was not because of the people involved here (several years ago) but that agreements could not be reached to make the EC12 an IEC12 in the rules around the world.

At the present time I do not see it a visit. For two years we have been open to getting together for an international event and have not been able to move forward. Presently NZL, UK and USA have interested parties.

We do not need a "class" status to do this. Sailing for fun with gentleman's rules would be fine and see the countryside.

...94 [8D]
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Postby kermwood » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:24 pm

HI RICK

I DON"T KNOW WHAT WENT BEFORE BUT NOW SEEMS A GOOD TIME FOR A NEW BEGINING
WHAT WITH YOUR NATIONALS PROVING TO BE SO POPULAR MAYBE NOW WE COULD TAKE THIS THING A STEP FURTHER
THERE SEEMS TO BE NO SHORTAGE OF SKIPPERS IN THE USA WILLING TO SAIL IN A NATIONAL EVENT.SO WHY NOT IN A INTERNATIONAL EVENT IN THE USA?
I SAY IN THE USA BECAUSE YOU AND NZ SEEM TO BE THE ONLY ONES AT THIS TIME TO BE ABLE TO HOLD AN EVENT OF THIS SIZE AND AS IT ALL STARTED IN THE US IT SEEMS TO ME THIS IS WHERE A NEW CHAPTER SHOULD START AGAIN

A MEETING OPEN TO ALL EC 12 SKIPPERS WORLDWIDE REGARDLESS OF THE RULES COVERING THE BUILD OF THEIR 12 IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
(AS LONG A IT IS A 12 !)
I DON"T KNOW HOW MANY SKIPPERS FROM OUTSIDE OF THE USA WOULD ATTEND
BUT THE PARTY CAN"T START UNTILL THE INVITES HAVE BEEN SENT OUT.
(WHATS THE WORSE THAT CAN HAPPEN YOU HAVE A SECOND NATIONAL GET TOGETHER)
THE RACING WOULD BE SECONDRY(BUT I WOULD LIKE MY NAME ON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL TROPHY!) TO MEET TOGETHER AND HAVE FUN EXCHANGING IDEAS AND PLANNING THE ROAD AHEAD IF ANY.

WHO KNOWS FROM LITTLE ACORNS AND THE FIRST STEP AND ALL THAT

WOODY
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Postby Nautic12 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:00 am

frank linney from New Zealand will be sailing in the NSW champs
(AUS)early march.Its a start lets keep the ball rolling.
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Postby Doug Wotring » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:29 am

just out of curiosity:

what is different in the NZ and AUS rules?
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Postby IanHB » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:17 pm

[:D] I may be able to help here with some information.
I am the person responsible for introducing the EC12 class to New Zealand.
Back in 1982 I ordered an EC12 from<b> Lakesedge Engineering</b> in Sydney Australia.
I had seen them advertised in the <b>Airborne Magazine</b> alongside articles written by
<b>Max Lewis.</b>
After contacting Max, he and <b>Ric Doorey</b> of Adelaide agreed to rig and tune the boat so that I could take delivery and compete in the Australian National Championships held in Adelaide Jan 1983.
They must have done a great job because I was able to win the fleet racing and place second in the match racing to give me the title of Australian Champion.
After bringing the boat home to NZ some interest was created over the next year.
I returned to the 84 nationals in Sydney and was lucky enough to repeat my success (but that`s another story)
In the following years boats were bought from different builders in Australia and some of these were used as plugs to <b>"FLOP"</b> a mould to begin production in NZ.
At one stage a sample hull was sent to the USA for approval as required by the rules at that time, but it disappeared into a black hole and was never heard of again.
It became a bit of a farce with hulls being turned out from moulds which were at least six or more generations away from the original.
The EC12 Owners Association under my guidence decided that this was not acceptable and we began moves to import a Master Plug via <b>Rod Carr</b> and to outlaw the production of hulls from any but the two licenced builders who had moulds made from the
<b>Official Original Plug.</b>
The story of the acquisition of this plug is a book on its own and partly because it takes me so long to type this and partly because I need to do some research to refresh my memory so as not to offend anyone I will leave that for another day.
Suffice to say that any 12 carrying an<b> NZL </b>number above 50 is the <b>NEW</b> shape.
The only other difference is that our B rig is a different size to the USA and we also have a C rig which is tiny allowing us to sail when most of the sissys are home sitting in front of the TV.
There is another story regarding the proposal to introduce an <b>International Version</b> of the <b>EC12 class</b> which I was involved in, but again that will have to be chapter III. So you have a lot to look forward to EH![B)]


Edited for poor spelling;






DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late
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Postby yachtie » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:10 pm

Bob, My understanding gleaned over the last 4-5 yrs is that our current shape boat is that as Ian said was to be adopted by the defunct International Rule. This boat is "fatter" than our early boats like my old NZL1 which ian refers to above.

The 95 Std hull is somewhere in the middle of these 2 shapes so is a little "skinnier" than our ones.



Chris
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&
NZL110 Swept Away
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Postby Rick West » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:41 pm

Gentlemen,
I have been following this string while on the driving way to the East Coast, sailing a regatta in Florida, driving to Atlanta and then flying home. I would like all that are following this string to stand down so that I can respond and then continue conversations. I received Woody's comments and wanted to respond but needed reflective time...he and I agree but I need to say more. Please respect that I must tend to business with my road trip and am looking forward to adding comment to this string. I will do this in the next few days.

...94 [8D]
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Postby Nautic12 » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:49 am

rick looking forward,to your reflective thoughts,try and convince
Ian to write the book.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:39 am

Well Ian I to would like to read your book for I was present when you picked up your boat KZ1 on the shores of Botany Bay in Sydney. I even got a shot of it, It makes a great picture.

I was also present when EC12 plug was imported into Australia from Chuck or Buddy Black's Treasure Tooling moulds.

As far as the IEC1M hull that was sent out to Australia , it was passed on to NZ but till now (05) it has not been returned. Never -th- less as I said to Rick recently, when he was travelling, that is water under the bridge for in Australia we have retained all our pre 1984 boats.

We are trying at this stage to revitalise the EC12 class in Australia. There are about 167 boats registed today and there is a Championship taking place in NSW (Sydney) on the 12th & 13th March 05 And A National Championship in Brisbane, Queensland in 5th & 6th November 05. For our first Nats since our haydays . When we ran the EC12s Worlds in 1987 . I might add there were no Americans present. English, New Zealanders and Aussies competed.

For further info , I suggest trying www.radiosailing.org.au (look under EC12 class page) Frank Linney is doing the honours for New Zealand this time in coming and we are all looking forward to him racing.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:25 am

As I see it , This is the state of play. NZ fat boat, USA thin boat. Australia in between boat. The underlying feature is that all these boats sail about the same. A good skipper with a well tuned boat will always come to the fore.

We have in Australia , one IEC12M from NZ. Not many people know this because it is hard to pick it in a fleet of EC12s.... as it should be. All the FUN is putting the boat in the water and sailing it.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:59 am

To Doug , to answer your question about the difference in NZ and Australian rules are basically 'not much'. For we are sailing with the same sail areas and sail plans and the same LWL. The early EC12s of NZ came from the early Treasure Tooling plug/hull from Australia, (someone said the first 50 boats). Then they switched over to 1995 hulls type.

Now while Australia has kept their boats some what standard, the NZ have moved on but basically they are still the same in performance. We expect in our forth coming events in March not to see any difference in the class as a whole. For a clean bum and a good set of sails still gets one across the line pretty early. we will be sailing latest racing rules(as we should)
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:41 am

To Yachtie, your boat NZ1 is from the Lakesedge Mould . What you may not know is that this mould is the FIRST mould off the Treasure Tooling plug from Chuck Black. You see Kevin Humphries was the person who did the original mould off that Treasure Tooling plug. When He mouldered it, his trading name was 'AeroMarine'. For certain tax purposes he changed his business name to 'Lakesedge Engineering'. Now for historical purposes the Australian Sorenson hulls came from mould of a boat from the the original'AeroMarine' mould, like KZ1.

The Australian Mini Mariner Hulls came from a 'flopped' Dumas hull. A 'Delisser Hull' was, I'm told, came from a Mini Mariner boat. So "Yachtie" if any moulds were made from your boat, they, then would have been second generation boats and quite legal. So perhaps NZ might have 'jumped the gun' so to speak. Perhaps if all those moulds were got from your boat (KZ1) they might have all been legal. Makes you think, shipmate?
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Postby Rick West » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:05 pm

To All,
I received the following email from Treasure enclosed in quotes below. I have little information in this past effort other than what I have heard. Consequently, I should not have made the comments posted above. I sincerely apologize to all around the world whom may have felt it was a statement directed against individuals or groups. I can assure you it was not but a thoughtless comment. I am not naive about what I say as head of the EC12 class in the US but should be more careful and less casual. My apology again and I will disengage from the subject.

While I do not think there is a need to revisit an international EC12 agreement, I am not opposed to discussions toward that in the class here. If so proposed, it will be considered by the Class Advisory Committee. What I am in favor of an international gathering through a few understandings and no rules other than those of sailing. NZL proposed such an event and there is interest here in going. Kermwood, above, has been included in those status emails and I share his enthusiasm and thoughts for moving forward with such an event gathering. When NZL was discussed heavily in 2003, one of the proponents said, "Let's just get on the airplane and we will work something out when we get there." That is still the attitude here.


<font color="purple">"G'day Rick , hows the trip going ? I just got back from Tasmania today my self. What worries me a little mate , is that the reply you gave on the EC12 forum on the 26th of Jan 05 was not even close to being right, about reaching agreement on the IEC12 rules. It was Michael Chalder of the AMYA EC12 class that pulled the plug on Carr and Co. I'm sitting on the entire file of these Rules Re write Determinations. I was a close mate of Max Lewis the President and before he died recently gave them all to me. Now let me say here , that one should never write in letters like these, personal Derogortory remarks about people in other places in the world All trying to do a rules rewrite for EC12s.Some of the personal comments are just unprintable. and if anyone is going to write a book(I've written three) they will probably need these "correspondence". regards Steve"</font id="purple">


...94 [8D]
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:40 pm

G'day Rick, we see the results of Email that tries to convey a message , to be recieved at the other end as something entirely different.

I wrote to you about your answer to a question that probably missed the mark, somewhat.

I also added a piece of information that would be needed by somebody who is going to write a book about the EC12s. That was the whole file of the re-write. I can imagine that to write about the history of this beaut class and not write about this episode in our history , would be a pitiful state indeed.

I was trying to portray that, I too didn't get to vote on the IEC12M rules for the reasons that will come out in the book about this sad period.
It was never in my intention to'dredge' anything, merely to add to the information (historically) to the class. It seems to me that I write with a directness, that doesn't quite "jell " with some people.

We seem to be at odds about having a "Happy" regatta Between UK , USA and NZ. Thats fine. We would like to send some reps. What racing rules are you going to race with and are you going to charge entry? By asking for racing rules does not imply (in any way) we won't be friendly but merely so serve as 'rules of the road', type of thing.

Now we are about to do just this because we are near NZ and historically close. Would we be furthering EC12 bonds ? Yes I think we will. Will we be asking you all to come? Yes (again ) we will. I very much hope that we can sail as a family together, a family of EC12s.
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