Mark Rounding - exonerated after hitting a mark

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Mark Rounding - exonerated after hitting a mark

Postby s vernon » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:25 pm

This is also from Elon 2009.

I was involved in the incident and made a ham sandwich of the rounding, which is one reason it has taken me so long to write this post after promising Frank Angel that I would.

If an inside boat with mark room protests the outside boat for not giving enough room and forcing her to hit the mark, and the outside boat does a turn (or later loses a protest) then the inside boat is exonerated for hitting the mark by rule 64.1(c).

64 DECISIONS
64.1 Penalties and Exoneration
(a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a party to a protest hearing has broken a rule, it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be
imposed whether or not the applicable rule was mentioned in the protest.
(b) If a boat has taken an applicable penalty, rule 64.1(a) does not apply to her unless the penalty for a rule she broke is a disqualification that is not excludable from her series score.
(c) When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled another boat to break a rule, rule 64.1(a) does not apply to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.
(d) If a boat has broken a rule when not racing, her penalty shall apply to the race sailed nearest in time to that of the incident.


In a similar but different case, if the inside boat is forced to miss the mark by the outside boat, she still has to come around again and round it.

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Postby Doug Wotring » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:41 pm

part two.....gotta round the mark

part one...good question....but do you risk going to commitee without doing a turn.....which would then have you DQ'd from the race entirely?
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Postby Rick West » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:20 am

The latter is the prime issue for me. Hitting the mark is breaking a rule even if it was not possible to miss it other than ducking it. The rules provide for such by exonerating but if it is always going to be a question...then you will have to do a turn. The advantage and rights are lost to the inside boats because of one boat without rights.

In scale sailing at the higher levels when the flags go up there is resolution then and at the time. We do not have this convenience. What we have and should and see this coming is communications. And the race committee should see it coming and observe. Remember Brawner calling a rounding as an RD and everyone doing what he says. We need to effect this ourselves as a spirit of sportsmanship. If nothing is said till contact is made, it is too late for that rounding.

Scott presents a trap. So, what if all go to committee to clarify who was exonerated and those that are not are DQed. That would gain be some issues of scoring. Is that fair though and by what issue of rule do you go to committee?

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Postby tag1945 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:54 pm

Scott, you are correct that the outside boat who failed to provide Mark-Room and broke Part 2 rule, can accept a penalty and do a turn for that breach or can go to a protest committee and if the committee found that the outside boat did not provide Mark-Room as required, she would be disqualified for that race and the boat who was entitled to Mark-Room would be exonerated by Rule 18.5 if she hit the mark or broke Rule 15 or 16. If the inside boat is not sure is she could convince a protest committee that she was forced into the Mark, it would be in her interest to do a penalty turn to prevent her from receiving DSQ at a committee hearing.

Your second example is a little different as the boat entitled to Mark-Room was forced to duck under the mark. The same rules apply to the boat that failed to provide the Mark-Room with one additional possibility. If the outside boat did a turn penalty for his breach of Rule 18 and the inside boat had to come back to the Mark to round the Mark on the correct side and the outside boat was then ahead in the race, Rule 44.1b would require that boat to retire as she would have gained a "significant advantage".

Doug is correct "You must round the mark on the correct side."

This situation is really helped by having Mark Judges who can confirm breaches and keep the race moving along. Because of RC requirements on time, having a Mark observer or Judge can exonerate the inside boat by letting the outside boat know that he witnessed the breach and recommend that the outside skipper accept her penalty.


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Postby Rick West » Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:01 pm

Tom,
Per a previous discussion elsewhere that brings up the "passing the foul" to another boat that caused a boat to hit the mark:

When there are multiple boats rounding the mark and where some are overlapped or not, an inside boat may not see the whole picture but that she is the inside boat and was forced into the mark by the closest one for lack of room. If she protests that boat and that boat felt the same about the one next to her that did not give her room to stay clear of the inside boat then she is to protest that boar for lack of room...etc.

When the inside boat hits the mark for lack of room she has broken a rule. By not having room she protests. This protest must be acknowledged or challenged. If it is acknowledged, has the inside boat been exonerated? Etc., up the line to the real offender?

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Postby tag1945 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:21 pm

Rick

I can not find any reference in the Rules or Cases that can make Rule 18.5 an automatic exoneration. After the fouled boat protests the outside boat and the outside boat acknowledges the foul and accepts a penalty on the water, this situation is over. If the boat that fouled believes the inside boat broke a rule also, she can protest her. If the inside boat feels she did break a rule that 18.5 will exonerate, she will have to go to the protest committee after the race and will probably be exonerated. If the inside boat is not sure if she qualifies for a 18.5 exoneration, she should play it safe by doing a turn penalty. This is the situation that I believe can be taken care of by Mark Observers, RD or Judges. They can ensure that the boat responsible for the lack of Mark-Room foul, by the outside boat, has acknowledged the protest and inform the inside boat(s) that their foul of a Section A rule or Rule 15 and 16 are exonerated by Rule 18.5 on the water. "Passing the Foul" is what will happen in committee anyway!

Everyone should remember that even in the zone, Rule 14 applies to all boats and is not exonerated by Rule 18.5. Avoiding contact is always on the table!
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Postby Rick West » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:08 am

Lets talk some more.
We have been doing just fine by communicating and claiming exoneration when appropriate. Scott wants to go deeper to make the rules pure. They don't seem pure though. Port roundings:

If I am inside and call for room (I should not have to) and at the mark move up to round the mark and not hit it, I make contact with the boat to my right and commit a foul. If I do not make contact I could hit the mark and commit a foul or be hitting her I hit the mark too. If I round the mark clean and to sail proper course my stern may hit the boat not giving me room and commit a foul.

If in any of these cases I have protested the boat on my right but I need exoneration from a RC member? If there is no one there I have to do a turn because going to committee is not secure as we all are laymen. Being the first to the mark on the inside after the start is the busiest and a great accomplishment to then lose the heat.

Or, it can be said that if the boat on my right that caused me to hit the mark, or her, has to acknowledge her no room foul or pass it on. If she does either does this exonerate me according to the rule? Or can it be said that by recognizing her responsibility and acting in the spirit of sportsmanship and the rules, she exonerates me?

Is this solution? Any comment, Scott...Tom?

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Postby tag1945 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:59 pm

Rick, Here is some more talk!

To make sure I understand you, we have starboard tack overlapped boats attempting to round a weather mark and leave the mark to port.

I always try to first determine the ROW boat in all situations and then list all applicable rules that might apply. First, because we have 2 or more boats overlapped on starboard tack inside the 4 boat zone. The first rule that applies is Rule 11 (on the same tack, overlapped). The leeward boat on the inside requires the boat or boats to windward to Keep Clear.

Rule 17 might also apply if the inside boat started the overlap from astern and within 2 boat lengths of the windward boat.
If 17 does apply, the inside ROW boat is limited to not sail above her proper course.

If the inside ROW boat was overlapped to windward, then she would have full luffing rights! She could then sail up to head to wind and force the windward boat to continue to keep clear.

So much for rule 17. I assume that the overlap of the boats began prior to the first boat reaching the 4 boat zone. Rule 18.2b would then also apply. In addition to Rule 11, rule 18.2b also gives Mark-Room to the inside boat. Rule 11 is in effect as long as the boats are overlapped and on the same tack. If the inside boat chooses to sail a straight course while at the mark, she can do so and the windward boat(s) must Keep Clear. Mark-Room does not require the inside ROW boat to take advantage of the Mark-Room. Mark-Room does include room for you to round the mark in this situation as long as you do in a seamanlike maner and do not tack.

Also remember that Rule 14, 15, 16 also can apply!

As to your exoneration question, as I stated before, I can find no rule or case that would make exoneration automatic. Rule 14 can exonerate a ROW boat or a boat entitled to Mark-Room.
18.5 can exonerate a boat taking Mark-Room which she is entitled.
64.1c When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled another boat to break a rule, rule 64.1(a) does not apply to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.

The best we can do for our sport / hobby is to have a non sailor at the marks to sort out questions and exonerate the appropriate boat(s) while on the water. Because we have many regattas with limited support for mark watchers, we might consider use a non sailing fleet member to assist with mark watching. Rule 86 allows us to change many of the rules in our sailing instructions and a procedure for receiving exoneration on the water by a mark watch is the only way to be fair. If we just said that if the fouling boat accepted the penalty, the ROW or Mark-Room boat is Exonerated by one of the rules above, that could work. It would be unfair to exonerate a boat if that ROW boat was also protested by the boat that she protested. That would need to go to committee.
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Postby Rick West » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Tom,
Thanks for marching down the rules and I agree. I also agree with the last sentence. No question this would go to committee.

So, the solution is to empower the RC to judge exoneration during a mark rounding (the prime issue here) on the spot through the SI? I can go for this with some briefing of the process and concerns.

I have seen some RD's walk the course to observe areas of congestion and talk it up. I like that too. Thanks, Tom.

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