International boat qualifcation

Chat regarding International EC12 operations, country organizations, event gathering and proposed alliances.

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International boat qualifcation

Postby kermwood » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:47 pm

<font color="blue"></font id="blue"><font size="6"></font id="size6">With the interest now being shown in sailing beyond our borders maybe it would be a good time for the guidelines that govern the class in the three major powers U.S.A -AUS- NZL be looked at to make it easier for those who wish to take part.
To sail in the USA/NZL you have to belong to the sports main governing body and your boat obtained from a supplier authorised by the class.In AUS l know you have to belong to the AYRA l am not sure of where you are allowed to get your boat from.
These rules are fine and serve the class well up to the point where you are from outside of one of these three and wish to sail in the other two.
EXAMPLE (1) if a NZL skipper wants to COMPETE in the USA he will have to join the AMYA and buy a boat from within the USA.
EXAMPLE (2) if a USA skipper wants to COMPETE in NZL he will have to join the NZEC 12 owners association and have a NZL reg boat.
l have used the word compete to show we are taking about competitive sailing not just a get together.l know boats can be lent but we all like to sail our own boats dont we.
At this moment in time skippers from these countries can only compete against each other every three years when the rules are relaxed.
After a lot of hard work behind the scenes by the US CS and the NZL OA the NZEC12OA have now got a new mould supplied by the US and will in the future be producing hulls that should be the same as US produced hulls.
So with the fact that US and NZL hulls will be same it should not matter where the hull was made,rather the fact from which mould it came from.
If the US EC12 class accepts the NZEC12 OA as a authorized manufacter and the NzEC12 OA accepts the USA made hulls then
This in one stroke will allow skippers to compete in both countries regattas whenever they like using one boat no matter where it is reg.

As to having to join to a another countries governing body l am not sure how that can be addressed.
(tell a lie l do you set up a internatonal class governing body !!!)
did you hear all the jaws hit the ground !!!
All this is not new its all been done before by such classes
like the i0m you may of heard of them the biggest fastest growing sailing group in the world No we don,t have to be like them but we can learn from them.
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Postby KED » Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:51 pm

AMYA, NZRYA, and ARYA are affiliates of the ISAF Radio Sailing Division and, as such, their members are entitled to compete at each other's events.

Each of these authorities has their own version of the class rules which in the case of AUS and NZ would preclude their boats from compliance in the US. The recent NZ 2006 International event recognised this and the Notice of Race only required entrants to have a certificate valid in their own country. The event demonstrated that the variations between the three versions of class rules had little effect on performance.

As in the USA and NZ the Australian Radio Yachting Association licences builders and moulds. Australia currently has one licenced builder.

Australia is revising its version of the class rules and it is hoped that recommendations bringing them closer to the NZ rule are adopted.

It would seem there are moves to standardise hulls between all three countries.


Ken Dobbie
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Postby IanHB » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:42 pm

Hey Woody.
Perhaps I can be of help here. Taking your points one at a time and adding my comments.

In most notices of race here in NZL we specify that entry is open to any skipper who is a current financial member of a <b>"CLUB"</b> affiliated through it`s <b>"NATIONAL AUTHOURITY" </b>to the <b>"IYRU-RSD."</b> This is the best way we have found of allowing any sailor from any country to compete in our regattas.
As far as the boat used by this entrant, for any <b>"international class"</b> it must hold a current measurement certificate, issued by the ruling body of the class in it`s country of origin.
This means that anyone at anytime can sail in any regatta in our country without having to join the owners association or register his boat here.

As far as to the legality of a boat from another country, the recent upgrade of the master mould here in NZL to the new <b>(2005/international/USA/world,)</b> or whatever is the correct name for it, plug shape, has brought us into line with the USA and helped to standardize the class and eliminate any concern regarding hull shapes at least.

There is only one small area of variation and it has to do with "curved booms."
These are allowed in NZL & AUS, but not in USA. The silly thing is, IMHO they make no difference to the speed of the boat. It is basicly cosmetic, so, should they be of concern?
The other difference is number of channels allowed, with NZL & AUS having three, whilst USA allows four. The fact that most of our boats only use two channels indicates to me that it is of little concern.

The Australian EC12 owners have a slightly different system regarding governing the class.
As far as I can understand it, the owners make recomendations to the Australian Radio Yachting Association who then make the class rules by which all must abide.
I assume that the association has some kind of committee which is made up of individuals
who have some expertise in the class, its idiosyncrasys, its history, construction and relationship within the world. Or at least that is my hope for the continued future development of the class in Australia.

<b>"An International Class Governing Body"</b> I would respectfully suggest that this is just what we have here, on this forum.
Sure it is just a bunch of old men with too much time on their hands, who sit at their keyboards and rabbit on about the class that they love. (Well that is a discription of me at least.)
I would like to think that we collectivly all contribute to the class and it`s growth and governence.
Simply by stating our views and then debating them, considering others opinions and coming to a consensus.
Is that not, what a <b>"Governing Body"</b> does?

DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late
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Postby kermwood » Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:33 pm

l stand corrected Ian.
But do not agree that a discussion forum is the right medium for the future of a class to be determined
As a rough guide to opinions maybe.But because of the simple fact of the amount of members who belong to the class and the amount who take part in the discussions l do not think this is can be a fair representation of the class members.

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Postby yachtie » Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:02 pm

<b></b>Governing Body<b></b> hmmm the proverbial can of worms is creaking it's weary lid open.

I agree with you both Woddy and Ian - in that by default the majority of people on here that make comments have become a de-facto "governing body" but is this also the correct forum??

By way of default my thoughts are that between the US CS, the NZEC12OA Exec and hopefully soon the ARYA these bodies are the "governing body". These groups are already "governing bodies" within each country and as the people at this level are all on the same page with regard to vision and desire to see the boats together where is the need for a formal body to add to the fray?

Each EXEC has regular communication and discussion and I applaud Rick for the way he has the class running so smoothly in his huge juristiction of the US. It is much easier in our smaller sailing communities of NZ and OZ.

However as in any group of like minded sould there are the doers, the plodders, the lurkers, the attendees, and the big group - the complainers who don't want anything to run smoothly.

At the end of tha day - don't break what ain't broke! The culminatin of 6 years of discussion, chat and then doing was seen in Nelson a couple of months back and all that were that agree what a fantastic time was had, new friends made, old ones seen again and all in all a friendly time.

My suggestion is simply lets just keep going the way we are - rules tend to make some want to break them, others can't be bothered with them and soem just run away from formal structure. Friendly discussion here can and does see off forum discussions at EXEC level that gets the result we all want - fair competition. As we saw in Nelson - it don't matter how old or new the boat or what variation of hull - they all had the same defining factor for performance - the nut hanging onto the stick[:D]

NZL1 Longtack
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Postby kermwood » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:28 pm

Oh dear that told you Woody opening the can of worms with its creaking weary lid AGAIN.
You just can,t stop rocking the boat can you no matter what shape the hull.
did you mention hull shape ? no not me.
What about bent booms then ? no not me .
Well it all seems to be done and dusted and undercontrol no need for you to worry anymore then.


Perhaps woody you would be better off playing on the otherside of the pond
where you can not cause any more <font size="6"></font id="size6"><font color="blue"></font id="blue">trouble.
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Postby IanHB » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:41 am

Woody, I don`t think you should take any of these comments as personal criticism.[8]
I personally feel that the so called "can of worms" should be permanently open.
But rather than thinking of the "International Future" of the class as a "can of worms" (an undesirable subject) to debate, we should change the connotation, (or change the term used) and encourage input from all those interested in helping the class to continue to prosper.
It was me who mentioned the hull shapes and the boom shapes and I make no apology for doing that.
These are, after all the points of difference amongst the countries currently hosting the class.
These are the things that need to be addressed if we are to proceed.
It may be that the consensus is to ignore the boom shapes,( they may be just cosmetic.)
It may be that the Australians see the sense in declaring the new plug as the only official plug.
Job done![:X]
Problem solved[^]
Arn`t we the clever ones. All done with the minimum fuss and the maximum good.
Everyone please, don`t stop contributing.... (causing trouble) is not the term to use.
We are all after the same end. Together we are very very powerful.
Best wishes.Ian.

DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late
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Postby kermwood » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:30 pm

<font color="blue"></font id="blue">Since my return from NZL 2006 l have been in contact with a top class skipper and boat builder here in the UK to get his input on him supplying EC12 hulls built here in the UK from a US class supplied Mould.
Tentative discussion before with him revealed he had two main concerns in trying to start a 12 Class in the UK.

(1)In his opinion That the boat was tender and was only a light weather boat and would not be suitable for UK weather.

After telling him about NZL2006 and showing film of the same he agreed that with down sized rigs and de-powering same the tenderness of the boat could be overcome.

(2)The total lack of any recongnizable international class organization or any international standing.

He then pointed out these facts to me.

That UK skippers like to sail
classes that they can scouce from with in the UK
Classes that have a high sailing profile.
Classes that have a high regatta programme worldwide
Classes that are seen as being internationaly recognizable

And when they join that class
That UK skippers attend more oversea regattas then any other country.

At nearly all oversea regattas the largest attending group after the host nation are from the UK and some times even out number the locals.

That the most successful sailing groups in the world all have international standing and a lot of their success only came after them obtaining international status.

Since making the above post l have been email by two US skippers saying that they felt l was being unfair to the class and upon reflection they may have been right and have edited the post to reflect that.After some time talking to one of them today he pointed out that what l was trying to put over was not what was appearing on the screen.What l have never wanted was a "Governing body" to change or rule the class and that using that expression took away from the point l was trying to get over.
Yes l would like to see a body overlooking the class made up from the USA/NZL/AUS but to PROMOTE the class not rule it.
l would like to see the group promote the class internationly.
Outside of the three main EC12 fleets the 12 has a very low profile
ask skippers at any pond in uk to name four sailing classes they will do so because they sail those classes or have heard of them through word of mouth or the media,but not one will name a EC12.
and l would not be suprised if this was not true of other areas outside of the three main EC12 fleets sailing areas.
And l think the class should be asking its self why .
What other groups have sailed in Disney world ?.
What other class such a history and pedegree?
What other class inch for inch for the cost of a 12 ?
So how do whe inform the world of the 12 ?
One way would be a new website to complement the sites already running.
This site could become group main site for the class, a international site with links to the other sites.It could have all the info that is on the sites that are now running and a lot more.
It could cover all the suppliers the class uses but under one banner.
It can inform the world by showing N.O.R when regattas are taking place even at a local level,who knows where the site might be read and people could be in the neighbourhood and not know it.
Who knows where EC12 skippers may be lurking in the world this meduim could open up a whole new world.
We can after recent events promote the fact that the 12Class is a world traveller.
The UK has known for some time that A class boats have been world travelers,but how many know that the Aussies and Kwiws have been 12 class travelers for some time ?
l am sure that all you out there in website land know that the possibilites are endless to what a site can do.
This would be a CLASS site for the world rather than the fragmented (excllent though they ) sites we have now.
The class could advertize it presence and/or the wesite to the world through the media i.e Marine modelling international" or simular publications.
All of us know of other classes being sailed in the world and the odds are we first heard of them through the media or the web
Anybody who knows me knows that l am very passionate about the class and l belive this could be one way forward for the class.
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Postby Doug Wotring » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:36 pm

woody when these UK skippers join a class how far do they travel....just in europe?

are they joining classes that have small boats? It's not your average guy who does world travels with a big boat like the 12.

I would think it would be "fairly" simple to create a UK class owners org.....under one of the existing governing bodies......and provide YRN of UK designation......providing the rules of the UK group fall in line with the parent bodies rules.
Doug Wotring
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Postby kermwood » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:55 pm

No Doug they travel the world where ever the i0m worlds are they will be there from Aus to Nz to Canada and if my memory serves me right in canada the UK had the most skippers.
Three skipper from my club went to italy last year and after the regatta sold their boats to other skippers !!
And no their not all small boats the A Class travels the world and their boats weigh more than a 12 !
The main point being is that appears that UK skippers like to Race no matter where and so like a class that allows them to do just that and that appers to be classes of international standing.
( And you know what they say Doug size does not matter ! )
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Postby yachtie » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:34 pm

Woody - your passion is applauded in what you are trying to get going in the UK and further afield and I agree with your sentiments 200%+

To have a centrally advertised point is a correct approach in my view. However, the small stumble is who is to pay for it? The only way to equitably pay for this is for each skipper to pay a nominal buck or 2 via their current group, i.e AMYA, ARYA or NZEC12OA. This wold mean a true "group" ownership that is fairly apportioned costwise amongst all. Refering to my earlier post, it would only take 3 or 4 doers to manage this well, and does then this group then become the de facto "governing body" [;)]

How much tho, is the main question, would this form of funding raise? I guess around 550 "members" in total would need to put in more than a couple of bucks each for it to work properly funded.

That is unless 1 of you philanthropical benefactors read this and want to "donate" resources that would need to probably run to a couple of thousand dollars (US of course[:D]) a year.

I would love to see this vision grow.[^]

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Postby kahle67 » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:22 pm

Sure would be nice to have the means to travel the world and sail toy boats like you and your fellow sailors in the UK, Woody. I would have loved to have gone down to New Zealand with you guys but with a 9 year old and a 6 year old under the roof, college tuition is my major priority. Maybe in 15 or 16 years if my eyes and thumbs still work.

Even if I could afford to compete on an International level, I would probably be campaigning a Melges 24 or something similar and trailerable here in the States. I am not saying that I would give up Model Yachting but for now it is the only way to stay in the game.

The best part about model Yachting:

1) Travel expenses are affordable
2) You don't have to worry about finding and keeping crew
3) You don't have to worry about the crew's bar tab
4) No expensive slip and storage fees
5) You always get to drive
6) Travel expenses are affordable

Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC
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Postby kermwood » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:58 pm

Hmm "Sure would be nice to Have the means" Good job my wife does not read this site !
l am just a hard working joe, Reichard !
and for someone else at that.
My sailboat trips all have to come out of my 20 days yearly holiday
l just sail toy boats to RELAX ?????
Hmm the joys of international travel.
27hrs flying and you arrive and your airline has lost your boat
( fair play they did find it next day )
34hrs trip back home 6hrs kip then up at 5.30am for work.
Ah its a jet set life for me !

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Postby IanHB » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:04 am

Woody, have you come across John Cleave? He lives in London and was EC12 World Champion around 1985 he was second in the World Championship in Queensland in 1987 where I was third.
(Same position 20 years later, so I have not become any better, also not become any worse.)[:D] John was a pioneer in international radio yacht travel.

DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late
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Postby greerdr » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:53 pm

We (Palm Beach Gardens Model Yacht Squadron) are having a regatta in Feb. and a UK sailor who will be visiting the area asked about entering.I would like to be clear on the requirements for him to sail as we would enjoy his particapation.
1.Membership in EC-12 org.
2.Registered boat (is chartering/loaning legal?)
3.AMYA membership (or other equalivent such as UKYA ?)
4.Fl association dues to compete for Fl. Championship.
I too feel a need for an International standard and welcome more discussion on this topic.

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