Windward Mark Rounding

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Windward Mark Rounding

Postby skip241 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:02 pm

Let's ask this again.

Two boats approaching the windward mark. Round to port. One boat on starboard tack, one boat on port tack. Both boats within two boat lengths of the mark. (Disregard the four boat rule for now.)

Can the port tack boat tack to starboard in front of the original starboard tack boat requiring the original starboard tack boat to alter course or give room for the just tacked boat to clear the mark?

It just doesn't seem right that all of this can happen within six feet of the mark.

Opinions? Tom???

Thanks! Skip [:D]
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Postby Columbia » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:42 pm

I say ram him and I'm sure he won't pull that move again. Kidding
I believe if he finished his tack you're out of luck and must give room.I rather give room and protest and let someone judge the call.It's very hard to determine all this because it all happens so quickly and I'm sure both parties believe they are right. By the way way if you are to full speed, the likelihood is you will probably overtake him.
I do understand the frustration.
Open to other opinions myself.

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Postby Fred Maurer » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:13 pm

I don't believe he can. You said both boats were within the zone when he tacked. Read:

18.3 Tacking when Approaching a Mark

If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply. The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and

(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her

For a good example of this I recommend:

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/m81_e.htm
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Postby Columbia » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:50 am

Nice example. But if you look closely you will notice an overlap prior to the completion of the tack. It's always a close call around the marks. That is why this sport is very argumentative.

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Postby tag1945 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:57 am

To properly call this question, we need a little more information. Here is what I would establish prior to calling this situation:
1. Position of the boats in question, before, during, and after;
1 boat on starboard tack
1 boat on Port tack
2. What's happening
3. We also need to know if the starboard boat is fetching the mark.
4. We also need to know did the port tack boat complete her tack prior to forcing the starboard tack boat to alter course.

After you get this information you should have a good picture of what happened and apply the appropriate rule(s).

Rules that apply to situation:
Always start with Section A rules:
Rule 10, Port tack boat shall Keep Clear of a Starboard tack boat.
Possibly Rule 12, A boat clear astern will keep clear of a boat clear ahead
Possibly Rule 11, Boats on the same tack, windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.
Rule 13, A boat tacking shall keep clear of other boats.

Limitations:
Rule 15, 16, 18 and always rule 14

Skip's question does not answer all of the questions to call this possible foul.
If the port tack boat completed her tack and was on a close hauled course ahead of the original starboard tack boat, she would become the new Right-of-way boat. Rule 12 requires the clear astern boat to keep clear of her. Rule 18.3a prevents the new ROW boat from forcing the original Starboard boat to sail above her Close hauled course or passing the mark on the correct side.

If the port tack boat tacked to leeward of the original starboard tack boat and had not arrived at her close hauled course, Rule 13 would require the port tack boat, as she passed head to wind, to keep clear of the original starboard tack boat. The original starboard boat does not have to action until the boat that tacked is <i>on</i> a close hauled course, not just on a starboard tack.

If the port tack boat tacked to leeward of the original starboard tack boat and was on a close hauled course and overlapped to leeward of the original starboard tack boat, then rule 11 would require the
original starboard tack boat to keep clear of the new leeward boat.
Rule 15 would require the new leeward boat to provide room and opportunity for the windward boat to keep clear. Rule 18.3 would require the new leeward boat not to force the original starboard tack boat to sail above a close hauled course.

To answer Skip's question. Can the port tack boat tack to starboard in front of and force the original starboard tack boat to alter course? <b>It depends!</b> If the original starboard boat has overstood the mark and had room to alter course without sailing above close haul, Rule 11 requires her to do so. Rule 16 requires the new ROW boat to allow room and opportunity for the original starboard boat to keep clear. Rule 18.3 only turns off rule 18.2
if the Starboard boat was fetching the mark.
If the original starboard boat was fetching the mark, Rule 18.3 turns off 18.2 and does not give Mark-Room to the new ROW boat. In this case, Since the new ROW boat did not have enough room to pass the mark without forcing the original boat to sail above close haul, she would be forced to sail below the mark and miss the mark. If this happened, as they passed the mark Rule 11 would still apply and the original starboard boat would still be required to keep clear.

Fred's link is a very good one to understand this concept but it only applied to one situation where the port tack boat had not completed her tack and she was required to keep clear while tacking.

When looking at a situation, I try and answer as many of the following question that Dave Perry recommended:

The 4 questions to ask:

1. Who, what, when & where?
Fleet racing? Match racing?
Before prep, during a race or perhaps after finishing?
Near a mark, at the start or in a leg of the course? Near a shore or other obstructions?

2. Relationship of boats?
ROW rules: one of four: 10 Port-Starboard/ 11 Windward-Leeward/ 12 Clear ahead - Clear astern/ 13 Tacking (one or both)

3. Limits - Obligations?
Rules 14, 15, 16 and 17: limitations on ROW-boat and obligations on Keep-clear boat, or perhaps on both boats?

4. Action - what happened
The actual positions of each boat leading up to, during and after the incident.

I hope this is not too much information.......
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Postby Rick West » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:03 pm

Tom was asked and all got a judges answer. He is right because it is a single statement at the hearing and no discussion.

To me this is the irritating business of a port tacking boat (blue) trying to cut in front of the planning of a starboard boat (red) approaching the mark. All port tackers claim they complete the tact to starboard but few get to full close hauled sails before contact. Foul. Then the verbalizing begins when people are trying to round the mark properly. It was this business and a resulting demasting that I am rarely seen in Florida.

To me, regardless of the rules, is the same business as port tacking the startline. You have better percentages in roulette.

to alter course or give room, is the question. Which was it? If a boat needs to alter course to avoid contact during the others tack, it is a foul on blue and irritating the hell out of everyone else. If red fully completed the tack and obviously slowing down (this is what causes havoc) so that red has to bear way, I feel blue did not give red a chance to keep clear. If there is a danger of contact then blue tacked into an overlap without giving red a chance to keep clear. Foul on blue.

In a hearing with me I will always push against blue. It was not planning but bullying. I would like all to sail by the rules without technicality but by sportsmanship. I like Freds comment and graphic link. This picture is seen way too often. Did this represent what you are talking about, Skip?


...94 [8D]
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Postby skip241 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:38 pm

Fred's animation was very close to my situation. However, both boats were within two boat lengths of the mark.

My irritation is that I worked hard to get to the right side of the course, was moving along at a pretty good "clip", close hauled and heading toward the windward mark. All of a sudden, out of the blue, another boat comes along on a port tack at the mark, tacks in front of me, has not built up his speed (has completed his tack), and I have to luff up in order to avoid hitting him. He rounds the mark and takes off to down the next leg. My momentum has all but stopped and I now ghost around the mark and fall 6-8 boat lengths behind.

I'm not as upset about this as it may sound. It was a fun day of sailing (which I don't do that often). It's just that when I go to regatta's at other venues, I want to know the rules.

In this case, I think I would have lost the protest. The other boat tacked in front of me, was clear ahead of me and I had to remain clear. I guess I need to go faster to get to the mark ahead of that boat next time.

Thanks everyone!

Skip [:D]
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Postby tag1945 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:18 pm

I would like to emphisize the main reason that we have have the situations like Skip and Rick mentioned.

One more note on Scott's note. An important thing to remember about Rule 13 is that as a boat passes head to wind, she changes tack at the moment. Rule 13 requires that the boat that tacked remain clear of other boats until she is on a close hauled course, not just change tack!

Most of our sailors want a simple single rule for all the situations on the water. RRS, in all situations on the water, require you to have knowledge of all the rules and how to apply them. If you ask most of our sailors, they believe that the limitations of rule 18 takes Precedence over Section A rules, which they do not!!!!!!!!!!
If all of our sailors understood the rules, they would think twice before every approaching the windward mark on port tack for a port rounding. There is just too many things that can happen that would cause the port tack boat to break a rule.


My recommendation is if you are approaching the windward mark, complete your tack onto the starboard layline outside the 4 boat zone. If you wind up leeward or clear ahead of the starboard boat, you will be entitled to Mark-Room as you reach the 4 boat zone and the "now" windward or clear astern boat must give you Mark-Room even if she had to sail above close haul to stay clear of you. If you wait and tack inside the zone, you will have several limitations, to what you can do, even after you become the ROW boat.

Make sure you select your protest committee members with a good knowledge of the rules also!!!!!
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Postby Fred Maurer » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:27 pm

My thanks to Tom for the effort involved in his explanation. Its' clarity was refreshing. My error was in jumping the gun and believing that I understood what all happened. Lesson learned there. For those that would like to examine more examples or windward mark roundings, I offer the following.

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/luvb04_e.htm
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Postby s vernon » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:46 am

Tom G,

You are right. As if I ever doubted you. Actually I did not doubt you.

I found my 2009-2012 Dave Perry Understanding the Rules book and on page 171 he uses the same basic words as Tom G.

He says the boat that "is tacking" cannot force the other boat to sail above close hauled to keep from hitting her...

From what Tom G. wrote, it is good to know that "is tacking" means that even after that boat tacks and becomes the ROW boat in front of the other boat she fouls the other boat if the other boat needs to head up above close hauled to keep from hitting her. (This last paragraph was added and confusing words were deleted in my editing.)

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Postby Chuck Luscomb » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:44 pm

All,

Regarding when a boat has actually completed her tack was a question I asked our wonderful husband and wife US Sailing Judges we had in ST Augustine last fall.

This came up as a question when a Starboard tack boat remains on starboard until she has completed her tack and is fully sheeted in. My question was simply if you are tacking from Starboard to Port and you risk fouling someone when you are on Port, then why would you not leave the sails eased and avoid the foul.

The answer I got seemed to conflict wiht the rules as I know them and what is printed here. They said that a boat completes her tack when she is now on the heading that would be consistent with the new tack regardless of where the sails were trimmed.


In your example Skip, if the boat tacking in front of you was able to complete her tack, regardless of if she slow to pick up speed, she is the ROW boat.

Lets say that she tacks under you and then shoots the mark. Again, she is able to do this under the rules and you must keep clear as long as she completes her tack.

Lets say she goes beyond the layline and tacks above you. If you are able to establish an overlap to leeward before she completes her tack, you are now the ROW boat.

Lets say she tacks in front of you, you duck below her before she completes her tack. You are the ROW boat and can shoot the mark.





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Postby abacojim » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:50 pm

To further complicate this discussion, what happens if there is a marks to starboard windward mark rounding? A boat approaches the mark on starboard tack and while another boat is on the layline on port tack. The starboard tack boat then tacks inside the circle to head to the next mark. The starboard boat tacks right in front of the port tack boat, that has to alter course to avoid a collision. Does the starboard boat then lose its rights when it tacks?

Jim

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Postby tag1945 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:12 pm

Chuck, Scott

Scott

I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. The fact that when a boat completes her tack in the zone from port to starboard and is either clear ahead or overlapped to leeward, that boat does become the Right-of-way boat.

Skip's question:
Can the port tack boat tack to starboard in front of the original starboard tack boat requiring the original starboard tack boat to alter course or give room for the just tacked boat to clear the mark?

The answer is "It depends"

If the original starboard tack boat is fetching the mark and can sail up to close hauled to avoid and keep clear of the new ROW boat, she must do so. Rule 18.3 limits the new ROW boat from forcing the original starboard tack boat to sail above close hauled or from passing the mark on the correct side.

The ISAF rules committee removed the Old Preamble to Section C rules to make the rules easier to understand.
Remember the first rules you must be concerned with are Section A rules! Then check Section B,C & D rules for "Obligations or limitations" to the Right of Way boat from Section A.

In Skip's question, The new ROW boat, if she had completed her tack, would break rule 18.3 if she causes the original starboard boat to sail above a close hauled course to avoid her. The ROW boat does not break Rule 18.3 by forcing the original starboard boat to luff up to a close hauled course to avoid the ROW boat. It is important to remember that the original starboard boat does not have to anticipate or take any action until the port tack boat has completed her tack. If the new ROW boat tacked so close to the starboard boat that the starboard boat could not avoid her, the ROW boat would have broken rule 15, If the the port tack boat completed her tack clear ahead of the starboard tack boat, rule 18.3 stills limits her rights as does rule 16 if she alters course after tacking.
``
Chuck,

Your first statement:
<font color="blue">"In your example Skip, if the boat tacking in front of you was able to complete her tack, regardless of if she slow to pick up speed, she is the ROW boat." </font id="blue">
Your are right, she becomes the ROW boat, but you must also consider the limitations as per Section A Preamble. In Skips question. The boat that tacked is subject to Rule 13, 14, 15, 18.3. When she arrived at a close hauled course (Think of this as a compass course and nothing to do with the sails), she must THEN allow room and opportunity for the other boat to stay clear. If this tack takes place in the zone, Rule 18.3 further restricts the ROW boat by not allowing her to force the other boat above a Close Hauled course to avoid her. Cases have stated that the other boat has no obligation to anticipate the the boat that tacked would break a rule, like rule 15 (not allowing room and opportunity to keep clear when she completed her tack).

Your other statement:
<font color="blue">"Lets say that she tacks under you and then shoots the mark. Again, she is able to do this under the rules and you must keep clear as long as she completes her tack." </font id="blue">
The boat that tacked will be the leeward ROW boat but can only shoot the mark if she does not force the other boat to sail above close hauled and complies with rules 15, 16, and 18.3.

Your last two statements I agree with.

Scott (again)
If you read the rules the way they were written, you will see how they fit together. ALWAYS determine the ROW boat using Section A rules first!!!! I can't say this enough. Section A rules apply throughout Section B,C, & D rules. You will find that there is a time when Section a rules are turned off, like Rule 19.2c, and in the Pramble to Section D rules. Once you have identified the ROW boat, find out if Section B,C & D limit the ROW boat.

Jim

To answer you question, Rule 13 is talking to a boat that is tacking, it does not care if the boat is tacking from Starboard or from Port.
Rule 13 and 18.3 only are taking to the boat that is tacking and the other boat, not to a port tack or starboard tack boat. You will also note that as the starboard tack boat completed her tack and became the ROW boat, she now has the limitations of Sections B,C & D. Rule 15 requires her to provide room and opportunity for the other boat to keep clear. Rule 18.3 also would apply to the ROW boat if they have not passed the mark and if they have passed the mark and still in the zone, you would go back to Section A rule that would apply and again, any limitations such as Rule 16 (Changing Course) or Rule 14 (Avoiding Contact).

I hope this answers some of the quesions you guy have.....
I recommend Dave Perry's book "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing" Page 168 covers just about all of your questions. Good graphics too!

Tom
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Postby s vernon » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:39 am

Tom,

Thank you for your patience and detailed explanations.

I got confused. For some reason, I thought that you had said Skip had to keep clear of the boat that tacked in front of him after it became the ROW boat and even if Skip was forced to sail above closehauled he had to keep clear of that ROW boat. You actually wrote that Skip was being fouled if he was forced to sail above close hauled after the port tack boat completed her tack in front of him and he ran up to her due to his greater speed.

So my current take is that Skip was fouled.

I will delete my first post in this thread since it contains bogus information.

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