Entry Limits

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Entry Limits

Postby Larry Ludwig » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:10 am

Why are there still limits to Regatta entries? I am curious as to what the powers that be say... about why regattas are being limited to 40 (or so it seems) entrants based upon crystals/freqs???

I would have thought that with the ability to change freqs being made as simple as it has been for many many years now... that this would have become a dead issue. I see that when cars and planes have their races/meets that they have many times the number of entrants and they are cabable of dealing with the problem.

Just curious
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Postby DBrawner » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:48 am

Regattas are really self limiting. While there have been posted limits, to my knowledge, there has never been an instance where the limit was reached for a regional or national championship.

The balance between amount of racing and time allowed has to be reached. As the entries increase, so does the number of fleets. As the number of fleets increase, the amount of racing each skipper does decreases significantly. This balance is usually reached at two fleets for a two day regatta and possibly three fleets at a 3 day regatta. Figuring out your limit in that case becomes a matter of how boats can race on your lake at once multiplied by the number of days for the regatta.

Crystals are no longer the limiting factor they once were. However, having skippers change them between heats is an invitation for delay and/or disaster. I am not too familiar with the cars and planes but I don't recall seeing 19 of them running at once.

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Postby Larry Ludwig » Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:50 pm

No, I don't recall seeing 19 of them running at once either... but I do see where there are hundreds of entries... far greater numbers than what we see at even the largest regattas. What would be the world record for number of entrants to an R/C regatta??? I think that the highest number I have heard was 80+ at an IOM... probably the World Championship. I am not clear on how this works although I have read everything I can find on the subject... about running supporting and developing racing for the models, and the only thing I am clear on is that we are going to have to come up with a format that will allow more entrants. The hobby is growing, and will hopefully pick up speed in that area as well, and this is part of our responsibility to help it along the way.

I guess that the simple short term answer is to require an invitation to the dance, but that is short sighted as well. Allowing someone a ticket based on the distance they travelled is not the answer, anymore than denying a qualified skipper a berth because he lives in the host city and the number of entrants from his club are artificially limited to make room for out of towners. Oh well... I can work on it in my spare time.. heheheh
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Postby MichaelJ2K » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:34 am

Hi guys,
Let's clarify a little bit about crystals. For transmitters only, unless you have a removeable module that contains the RF section and crystal, you may not change the crystal. You may change modules as much as you like. For receivers, it dosen't matter except that not tuning that receiver to a transmitter RF module invites disaster to both you and your fellow skippers. So, maybe when we are talking about changing frequencies, can we refer to it as frequency modules rather than crystals? It seems that most all the radios we use today have a removeable module and maybe the discussions can be better understood by referring to them as such, especially for newcomers to the class. I know it's scemantics but the terminology we use may lead to some unintended confusion.

HTH,

Mike
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Postby Matthew Houghton » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:56 am

Bear in mind that when you go to purchase a new set of modules, the manufacturer calls them chrystals. Most of us are not completely familiar with christals vs. modules and, thus, simplicity is the key.

Just my 2 cents.

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Postby yachtie » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:01 am

Chrystals, Christals, or Modules??

Who cares - as long as the boat listens to my transmitter!
Just stay off my damn frequency though [:D][;)]
Chuckle Chuckle

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Postby Rick West » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:31 am

Chris, you are too much. You said that with a yard of ale in the right paw, eh?

When you read Brawner you need to read deep. There is a lot of experience and history on the line as an RD at major events in his words. I can assure you that if it can be bigger and better he will be the first to stand and shout "Lets go racing."

Limits come in a lot of ways; the size of that portion of a lake that is reasonable to sail, the ability of the race staff to handle and conduct the event and an individual races, the amount of time and total races one is on the water for the effort in being there and the landed facilities and after hours events. Many that have conducted large fleet events agree that with a good venue 16 to 18 boats on the water for a start is likey to be a capability limit to manage with fairness.

Promotion Relegation has provided good fleet management above 30 boats for an event. The Matrix system is best at two fleets and places severe restriction in time and cycles when three fleets are needed. There have been other suggestions but in the end the reasonable fairness with time on the water is a sought after goal. Likewise, in championship regattas, the quality of the racing is a prime consideration through the lenght of the heat. It was hard at the Dayton nationals because of the very light air but the RC held to the two lap preference.

If you hold to these considerations for a national championship, where three fleets can expect to sail around 20 two-lap races in three days, one can feel comfortable with the effort to attend and better with a chance to offer a tactical plan.

Taking these considerations in mind a limit of 42 to 46 boats becomes the result of the math. We have 46 channels but even that number does little to guarantee a lack of switching. With this presentation for an event it can be a daunting projection for many but a few. The organization of four well prepared individuals is on the border of challenging to get off 120 water events at a nationals for entries around 40. This includes match racing.

I think that Larry is right in his expectations that major events will grow. It would certainly be reasonable to expect in class dense areas like Florida and Charleston. The decision for the class to form pro teams to conduct the nationals was part of these considerations rather than burdening a local club for such a large effort with possibly only tutored preparation.

I do not know what other classes do to handle 80 entries. It may be that we ourselves and the style of racing we like are the limiting factors. Whatever, the thinking has been underway should limits be thought to be real and expected.

...94 [8D]
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Postby fvracer1 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:40 pm

As the race director for this years Vic Nationals here in Detroit and a possible EC12 owner, let me say that most regattas, as ours did, was limited to Saturday, Sunday with Friday a tune and measure day. We set the limits on 42 boats which used up all 30 channels on 75mhz all the 27 mhz and I was fortunate enough to have guys on 53mhz and one or two on 40. The headache of changing crystals and reassigning them would have been a major headache with promotion and relegation. That and we were fighting the same no wind sitation you guys had. I would say 42 tops and hope some of your guys have 27,40 and 53mhz. I know that if I was going to a regatta that would be heavily entered, the registrar would gladly take me in a heart beat if I said I had a boat on 40 MHZ or 53 MHZ. IMHO Frank Vella

"When the cannon fires, harden up, tack or get out of my way"
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Postby MichaelJ2K » Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:06 am

"I know that if I was going to a regatta that would be heavily entered, the registrar would gladly take me in a heart beat if I said I had a boat on 40 MHZ or 53 MHZ." IMHO Frank Vella

Frank,
It's interesting that 40MHZ radios are not legal here in the U.S. but are legal in Japan. [?] How did they do that?

50-53MHZ is ok as long as they have the license to go with it.
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Postby fvracer1 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:03 pm

Yikes!!!!, I did not know they were not legal....Good thing the guy never showed up for the Vic Nat races

"When the cannon fires, harden up, tack or get out of my way"
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Postby MichaelJ2K » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:01 pm

Here is a link to the frequencies that are legal in the U.S.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/frequency.htm

Note: 49MHZ is usually used for telemetry devices like thermal "sniffers" in sailplanes. 50 and 53mhz require the transmitter operator to posess an amateur license.
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