Florida Championship Regatta Format

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Florida Championship Regatta Format

Postby IrishAye » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:22 am

I would like to begin a debate on the merits or otherwise of the Regatta format as proposed by Jim Kaiglin which is a better alternative to the system voted on to replace the Promotion / Relegation format used at all Regional events for its fairness for all participants.

There were two main reasons stated for the change from the P/R to the Gold / Silver fleet system a)<b>Larger participation at regattas</b> due to longer rest periods between races making the event more manageable for some. b)Some folks on the Bubble complained about the <b>hectic pace with little rest between races.</b>

The format adopted was to do away with the pre-races and use the last 3 scored regattas to determine the position and fleet participation for each captain. A captain could also choose to sail in the Silver fleet by selecting B in the NOR application.

In my view the two fleet system will not necessarily improve the attendance at Regattas as most of the regular regatta sailors voted to continue the P/R system.....also Captains having to travel a long way to attend a regatta knowing that they will sail the Silver fleet may opt to stay away.

Note also...Only captains sailing the Gold fleet are elligable to win the Florida Championship Trophy or be invited to sail the Champions Regatta.

I am sure we can go on and on so in order to get to my point I would like to offer we vote a compromise solution for next years Florida Championship Regatta Format . This is the one originally posted by Jim Kaglin called the Modified 2 Fleet system:Here is Jim's Letter where he discussed his porposal:

<i>I totally agree with all of the benefits of the 2 fleet system, except one. That one being that I or anyone else could show up to a regatta and have no chance of winning, or contending, or even getting to sail in the same fleet with the best sailors. The benefits of the 2 fleet system, of which I totally agree are:

1. Not having to take your boat in and out of the water as much. I am probably one of the younger guys who sail these boats, and I have trouble getting my boat in and out of the water.
2. More racing, more races.
3. You don't have to think what fleet your in if you are on the bubble as in P/R. At The Valentines regatta Feb 2010, I found myself sailing
six races in a row, until I finally settled down in A fleet.
4. The Silver fleet encourages older sailors or less competitive sailors or new sailors in a less intensive way to compete and without worry of messing up a top sailor.
5. Gives out more trophies - I got several Silver fleet trophies, and won The Villages Silver Fleet in 2009. I like getting trophies too. That is great. I am totally for that.
6. There will be a long break between races, you can work on your boat, change rigs, relax, take pictures, etc.
7. Less work for race committee.

However, I can see already that the proposed system is a little complicated with calculating averages, no shows, tie-breakers, competitors from other fleets who want to be worked in, etc. It seems like there would be some funny math and discretionary decisions being made. It also seems like there would be quite a bit of work for the race committee figuring the separate fleets.

To pull a quote from the above proposal, "The list would then be put in descending order from top to bottom using the average of competitors previous three regattas in which they competed. If a competitor has not competed in three regattas, the average of regattas sailed will be used." This might be the fairest way in going back to the old 2 fleet system. But I would think that those sailors from other associations, probably being the more dedicated and competitive, would most likely bump a sailor "on the bubble" to the Silver fleet. Does anyone have a count on those sailors from other associations? Would it by like one occasional person, or could it be 4 or 5 sailors showing up at one regatta.

Third, I called my original proposal the "Modified 2 fleet system." I think this should be looked at again. It allows for all of the benefits of the 2 fleet system, but gives anyone who shows up to a regatta a chance to win, or at least sail with the top sailors. My idea was that there would be 3 heats (6 seeding races). Then during lunchtime, the scores would be tallied, the cut would be made, and the top half would be the Gold fleet and the bottom half would be the silver fleet. Simple, straightforward, no averages, no allowance for out of towners, etc. You have to race your way into the gold fleet. For the gold fleet, these races would count and be carried forward. The silver fleet would start fresh. Then for the rest of the regatta, we have the 2 fleet system, all of the benefits of the 2 fleet system, but fair for every sailor who shows up for the regatta, the "Modified 2 Fleet System."

I ask that the Modified 2 Fleet System also be added to the slate as an option to be voted on.
Please let us consider adopting Jim's proposal for 2012.

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Postby Rick West » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:20 am

I think you have articulated your point and comments in general about the two fleet system well. I also understand that as presenting a point of exception in hopes of debate, this may not be a good place. Only Florida sails this format as adopted by the Florida EC12 Association apart of the rest of the class. And those of us outside the FLA find it different and confusing to travel into it with what skills we may possess. So, most of us dont.

I also understand the FLA does not have a forum to present these views among those within the system. You are welcome to continue here but thinking that most that may have comment are outside the FLA and hence not as keen about the system.

Also, there have been several variations of this system from year to year since it started. Each time there was a vote to move it along. This would indicate still some differing opinions and debate amongst the FLA could lead to a unified acceptance not defined by the vote.

Give it a try and see if Florida will show here.

...94 [8D]
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Postby RMDJBD » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:31 am

I think you missed one important part of the A-B fleet system, the top three positions of B fleet have an automatic entry into A fleet at the next regatta. Now if you think you are A fleet material you should be able to make the balance of the years regattas in the A fleet, if not and you slip to B fleet you can still get back into A fleet at the next regatta by finishing in the top 3 again and get the automatic into A fleet the next regatta and use the B fleet race as a throw out. The normal years racing schedule has 7 races with 3 throw outs.

As for skippers who come from out of the FLORIDA association, the one's that qualify for A fleet will just add that many more in the fleet and will not change the A-B split point.

Jim Kaiglin's system has one bad point. If you sail 3 heats (6 races) who is going to setup the fleets and use what system. A good sailor can get stuck in B fleet, which I have seen happen in the P/R system but yes he can get to A in the next race, but with Kaiglin system he would be in B fleet for the rest of that regatta. That would be no different than the A-B fleet system now being used.

The best way to fix the A-B fleet system is if everybody new how to sail properly and by the rules, a single fleet start, everything is equal. I sail full size Star class boats for 7 yrs and had 75-125 boats on the line.

I could go on and on but it is getting late and I have to work in the morning, Good night.

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Postby bigfoot55 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:31 pm

I am all for discussion of the options, and consideration at the end of this short season for next years regattas. 20 boats on the line is a practical limit for our sailing, so some adjustment has to be made.
I will support some A/B fleet structure in any event. Lets see what happens in the next three months.

Wanna be in A? As long as you can score top three, go to A, your in there. That is how it works right? Good Luck!

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Postby Capt. Flak » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:28 pm

Martin, we talked about this at the lake, so I will be brief. The time for all of this was at the meeting. Jim Kaighin's proposal was given time and an overwhelming majority did not want to include it any further in the discussion. Jim was informed of this after the meeting as well.

You asked about the vote to me at the lake and you felt that I should not have opened up to the whole membership as they are not all active sailors. First of all, they might well be more active if they had a system they wanted to sail in. Second the results of those who voted showed a 97 percent participation level. So the vote did include a large majority of active skippers.

I will not tell you who voted for what as their votes are private. You said you did your own survey of some members and they all wanted P&R. Well the fact is that of the 57 votes total there were 35 for Two-Fleet and 22 for P&R.

You then said that all the top skippers you talked to wanted P&R. Of those skippers who have finished well in regattas and have the potential to trophy and/or qualify for the Champions Regatta, 17 voted for Two-Fleet while 12 voted for P&R. Basically the vote by regular A-fleet skippers and the vote by regular B-fleet skippers came out just about the exact same with a 3 to 2 margin in favor of Two-fleet by both fleets.

So you can see that the vote for Two-Fleet was not lopsided on the part of those who are at the top of the fleet or are more active vs those who are less active in attendance or do not sail at the top of the fleet.

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Postby bigfoot55 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:16 pm

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