The EC12 and AMYA Membership

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The EC12 and AMYA Membership

Postby MichaelJ2K » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:35 pm

I read the latest EC12 News with great interest regarding the sale of newly manufactured hulls to AMYA members only. Yes, it might dissuade a potential skipper from purchasing a boat but how about if a one year AMYA membership was included with the sale? It would give interested skippers a chance to be introduced to EC12 racing and he/she can decide if racing is their cup of tea. Should they desire to sell their boat, that would not be a problems as the boat is already on the record as having been registered with the class whether the purchaser is an AMYA member or not.

On the other hand, if a new hull is sold to an overseas buyer, does that person also need an AMYA membership?



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Postby Rick West » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:24 pm

Michael,
It was suggested but in the end that is a marketing thing and the builders should handle to their liking.

The point was made that a hull is shipped with the certificate label glassed in the hull and so it is identified in the marketplace as legal hull even thought it was never registered because the buyer was not a member. This is true and would be considered wherever that hull surfaced again in time. My position was we wanted the hull to be registered at the git go and the fee was paid in the policy. In requiring membership we satisfy the original intent and have the opportunty to show AMYA to someone new and they can decide a year later.

I am glad you pointed that out in your understanding because it leads to a following point that now the person is part of the group with friends that are members.

There are special circumstance and we do sell hulls abroad. They are shipped with the certificate label also. They all are. It has been fun to receive the photos with the numbers on the sails from the YRN.

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Postby tallastro » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:36 pm

Just so I understand things... this policy will take effect on April 1 but the membership won't vote on it until sometime in the fall. What will be the policy if this proposal fails to become part of the EC12 rules? And as long as I'm posting, can we get some feedback from the manufacturers please? How do they feel about this?

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Postby RMDJBD » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:14 am

John

You have brought up two good points.

One: The CS has put the cart before the horse on this issue.

Two: Nothing has been communicated from the CS to the manufactures if the proposal fails.

As a manufacture that has produced the most hulls out of the new class molds I am holding any feedback till I see more feedback from the members on this subject.

Since this is now my primary business this policy can put quite a big dent in my year end profit statement because of lost sales.



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Postby Doug Wotring » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:47 pm

I don;t buy the lost sales......

someone who is shelling out 1000+ for a toy boat is not going to balk at an extra 20.00

the peopel who wil bitch about it are already going to be bitching about the price
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Postby Chuck Luscomb » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:05 pm

Bob,

Didn't you say to me that of the number of boats you have sold, only 10-15% fall into the category you are upset about?

So let's do the math,

1-2 boats in 10 is not an AMYA member. Of that number, some percentage will complain about becoming a member for $25.00 and some will not. Let's say it's a really big number like 50%. So of 10 boats sold, 5% will dig their heels in and really put up a stink. Of the ones that really put up a stink, lets again use a really big number like 50%, will choose not to purchase an EC12 all together. I am not sure what the rau is about Bob.

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Postby Doug Wotring » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:49 pm

Wow, someone has their panties in a wad.....so this is a responnse to the remainder of the group

So somebody who is shelling out 570.00 is going to cry about paying 595.00 (Sorry I forgot what I pay to the AMYA BOB)

Thats just pure BS.

with Chuck's Numbers referencing your Stated number of 10-15% not being AMYA members already.

of the 108 requested YRN's to date.

16.2 were not AMYA members

Of these how many became AMYA members?

Chuck's Hypothetical of 50% that will cry about paying the AMYA

thats 8.1 boat owners

of that 50% will be so tight or hard headed that they will not purchase an EC-12 that includes a one year AMYA membership....thats 4.05 boats or 2.025 boat sales lost per year.

I don;t see the what the big issue is.....and I think Chucks 50% for sake of arguement numbers are absurdly high purposefully, more likely we are talking in the 10% range

16.2 non AMYA members
1.6 cry about 25.00
.8 boats per year lost sales

Perhaps if .8 boats per year lost sales is an issue you should buy the other manufacturers out....then you will have more sales.

How many sales are lost because a package deal cost 570.00 I know that is more of an issue
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Postby Doug Wotring » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:59 pm

Bob, if you have someone who wants a boat and does not want to be an AMYA member....what is to keep you from selling him the boat.....without a YRN.....obviously if they are not interested in racing, or belonging to an AMYA club and racing in local events...they don;t need it....

if this is an option the mandatory AMYA with YRN is a non issue

think of the AMYA memership and YRN as a resale factor
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Postby MichaelJ2K » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:06 am

Since I am also a member of an RC flying club, Academy of Model Aeronautics membership is a requirement for supplementary homeowners insurance coverage. AMA has several programs to get a new modeler going, one is a $19.95 introductory three month membership to see if the prospective modeler is interested in continuing into a full membership which is $65/year. AMA also has a program for those interested in electric park flyer models for $29.95 a year which includes membership benefits. There is also a club program called "Takeoff And Grow" that assists clubs in introducing model aviation to the general public.
FMI go to http://www.modelaircraft.org

Now understand that AMA has become a multi million dollar business and AMYA is nowhere near that level. AMA has a triple digit membership mainly due to the requirement that all AMA chartered clubs require AMA membership as a prerequisite for joining. AMYA is not in the position spend the dollars to create similar programs but I think in general, the clubs do a pretty good job of promoting themselves and the model yachting hobby/sport. Nowhere have I seen it written that at the club level (excluding the nationals, regionals and published regattas) AMYA membership is a requirement except that it may be a club's policy to require membership. How many AMYA clubs have members who are not AMYA?

I just don't think it's right for the class to mandate AMYA membership to be a requirement for owning an EC12. I think a prospective skipper will end up going to the hobby store for that readily available $300 ready to go boat and enjoy it until the thrill wears off. Personally, EC12 racing is a great program, it requires a time and money committment. I've made a bunch of great friends and I'm having a blast. I understand the intentions of the CAC for growing the class but I think that it should be up to the individual to decide whether he wants to take an active part in EC12 racing or tool around the pond with a $1200 boat. If I was not interested in racing, I can certainly think of better uses of that $1200![:D] I bought a 12 because I wanted to race. I didn't buy it to play in the pond for a couple of hours then toss it in the corner to collect dust. If I wanted to do that, I would have gone to the hobby store for that $300 ready to sail boat.

Guys, there's no reason to pull guessitmated figures out of the air as I don't know if there are any statistics out there to prove it. Bob, Scott, Larry and Skip are the best judges of this and are going to sell boats matter what. If I was one of these guys, I would seriously consider not continuing to make hulls if there were restrictions as to who could buy one. The class cannot afford to lose these guys! How many Soling One Meter boats have been sold over the years are not registered in the SIM class? A bunch. And you know? Who cares! Victor Model Products is in the business to sell model yachts just as these guys are doing. Those who want to take an active part in SIM racing go to the extra effort to insure that their boat class legal. Why do Bob, Scott, Larry and Skip do what they do? They do it because they enjoy the craftsmanship of fine boat, participation in the class and it puts an extra buck in their pocket. We cannot afford to lose these guys. They already do a lot for this sport.

Let the new skipper have the choice to at least try the program at the club level to see if it interests them. Let them race at the club level and if they desire to continue require AMYA membership for anything higher. You have to remember that for some, the fustration level can be very high for a boat like a 12. I've seen a lot of people drop out and boats disappear because of that. Let the manufacturer sell as many boats as he wants and advise the buyer that the boat is an EC12 class legal hull with a manufacturers number and YRN and that his name, address and hull stats will be supplied to the CS which will be recorded in the database whether the owner is a AMYA member or not. The CS should then contact the buyer with information on clubs in his region with EC12 programs, a club contact name and AMYA information then let it be up to the buyer to take the next step if he so desires. The manufacturers only requirement is to insure that their product is class legal whether it is officially registered or not. Don't ask them to be the class cops, tax collector, etc., etc. If the owner does not officially become a AMYA member and does not officially register with the class, that boat still has a YRN regardless of how old or how long ago it was manufactured. It will then be up to the new owner to insure that the boat conforms to the class rule if he desires to race in national, regional and published regattas.

This is just my personal opinion and as you know, everybody has one![;)]


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Postby Rick West » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:07 pm

The requirement for membership in the purchase of a new hull has been rescinded till a count of the votes in the fall regarding the motion for class rule change.

Withdrawal of the policy at this time is for a lot of reasons but first that the manufacturers are not completely in agreement. Secondly, AMYA is involved in this although I have not received a call. The point is that it may not be a good idea at this time or in the future. We have been a lot of places and done much and can expect some mistakes. We shall see.

This needs to be clear considering all the misinformation that is going around, I proceed along with programs at the consensus of the CAC. This was the major change in Class administration when I came on board. In the last week I have been called a dictator twice. There are other reasons for this than the administration of this Class.

Michael, I appreciate the tone of your conversation and the time to present a point of view with order and intelligence. However, the general tone of this string needs to be civil or I will lock it down. It has nothing to do with comments about me and Class management but that we all know each other on the playground and the Class is noted for the friendships shared there. There is a move afoot to change this and I will not allow it on the forum. We never have and this forum was provided to the Class for sharing things about the EC12.

Discussions on points of view for membership requirement in buying an EC12 hull are appropriate because it will be on the ballot. Let’s do so with civility and please keep the politics out it. I am sure it would be appreciated by all.


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Postby Doug Wotring » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:50 pm

Dictator.....?/

Maybe......

or maybe Much Beloved Dictator!

[:D]
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Postby Doug Wotring » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:52 pm

for the AMYA pond Insurance program...does it require the club members to be AMYA members?
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Postby tallastro » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:44 pm

Sheesh, I hope there was some initial controversy with this issue and my simple question didn't cause all this animosity.

Anyway, thanks Bob for the manufacturer's perspective. Funny that you're holding your final judgment until you hear more from the skippers while I'm holding mine til I know more from the manufacturers. Bob, this skipper's first impression of the policy is not positive. It doesn't appear welcoming to new skippers considering the class. I think that asking for another $39.50 before the skipper even gets his boat will turn people off.

I also think that rules regarding the hull should restrict themselves to the hull itself. The status of the owner seem irrelevant. Requiring AMYA membership for a regatta would be a more appropriate place for such a rule.

Doug, your question about selling a hull without a YRN is interesting. Is the boat an EC12 without a YRN? Can the manufacturer advertise such a boat as an EC12? I don't know.

Sorry if this sounds like politics Rick. I just don't see how it can't be. Any discussion of rules and policies is political (social relations involving authority or power). I think holding off on this policy is a wise choice.

Oh well, back to installing this winch. I want to try s<s>inking</s>ailing my EC12 this weekend.

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Postby Doug Wotring » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:54 pm

My understanding and interpretations:

the Class owns the molds....and is letting the manufacturers make boats at the class's will.

if the molds were owned by the manufacturer.....I suppose the manufacturer could sell boats to whoever they want (for that matter there are old 12 molds out there) Now calling them a EC-12 although sort of correct would be misleading the buyer implying that it is an EC-12 and belongs to the class etc.

More correctly they should call it a 12 meter rc sailboat/yacht. and make note that it is not registered, and never can be.

Obviously, if the new owner has no interest in the AMYA membership he is not interested in competetive sailing....if in deed to be covered by AMYA pond insurance he must be a member....then that precludes him from any organized EC-12 club level racing as well from the perspective of the club CYA.

I would say if a manufacturer wants to sell non registered/hulls purchase one of the several older (pre class standard, but post 95 standard molds) for the small percentage of boats that would fall into this catagory.

Furthermore, Outside of the 32.50 membership fee......which again I can't beleive will scare off any prospective buyer of a 1000.00 + toy boat..whats the big deal......perhaps if it was a 40.00 boat registration fee with a free year of AMYA.....same damn thing.....( not sure of actual numbers and I don;t care)...people love free ****...even if it's not really free.

Perhaps Bob, who is now making his living making EC-12 as per his own statement ought to be nicer and more supportive to the class that actually owns his liveleyhood (the molds)

It is such a non issue I can't beleive it has drawn so much interest.
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Postby michaele69 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:00 am

I think it draws interest because it just seems contrary that you would have to join an organization to purchase a product. It's like haveing to join AAA before you can buy a car. Does that make sense? It's almost as bad as having to join a union before you can get a job.

If people are not going to race, why make them join AMYA? If people see the benefit in joining, they will, if not they won't. Forcing them to just leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

At the club level it is different. There you are dealing with insurance, and joining to be covered is a good thing.

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