Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby fvracer1 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:03 am

So here comes this new process that we are to measure our boats and have a measurer verify the measurement(???). In 2011, I purchased one of the three boats in question the Thursday morning of the Charleston National. Baron delivered it to me. The boat I purchased was the current year's Florida EC12 Champion and many time National and Regional front runner. I presented my new boat to tech and Bob D starts exclaiming "I found another one".... I am looking at him like he has lost his mind..... I keep hearing him say you are too narrow by some millimeter figure ( I do not recall) at Station 30. I am thinking he has lost his mind as this is an RMD hull that he made..... possibly "bad Kool Aid" No one said a thing to me about rectifying the narrowness. Turns out to be 1mm @ Station 30 taking into account the +/- variable. Now if any of you have ever seen me sail, I cannot make good use of the 1mm narrowness. I am now told to get a high heat gun and peel the deck off the boat and install a new one......for 1 mm. if I am forced to do this, I will quit this class. I bought this boat with the most honorable of intentions and paid a slightly higher price based on its record. If this decision is paramount to the future of the class, go forward but please remember, all those that are out of spec will most likely put their boats away and the class will be the worse for it. Not sure with declining numbers of EC12's, this would be the smartest decision. The right move is to grandfather these boats and then move forward with the verbage in the rules both sides feel are necessary.

Frank Vella 1982

PS One of the other boats was the National Champion at Stowe..... I understand his hull was compromised and tossed after he attempted to remove the deck.
"When the cannon fires, harden up, tack or get out of my way"
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby skip » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:04 am

Frank,
Don’t do anything drastic yet!
The current EC12 rule regarding beam states:
“6.1 The measured beam of each boat shall be within +/- 0.25 inches (6 mm) of the specified beam dimensions at the indicated station.
The definitions of beam are:
• Oxford – A ship’s breadth at its widest point
• Webster – The extreme width of a ship at the widest point
• American Heritage – The breadth of a ship at the widest point
• Merriam - The breadth of a ship at the widest point
• Wikipedia (And we all know the internet is “never” wrong.) - The beam of a ship is its width at the widest point
You will notice that none of these definitions include anything related to “where the deck and the hull meet”. I believe this “hull meets deck” thing is a result of builders using a construction method that has been used for years but at one time did not include the “tumblehome” that has been built into the latest class molds. Now that there is a tumblehome in the middle area of the hull, it’s causing an issue with beam measurements and the definition of “beam”.
I personally think Joe has a good solution to the issue created by the tumblehome.
Use calipers to measure the beam or widest part of the boat at a particular station. If the boat measurement fails using the tumblehome, move the calipers to the “hull meets deck” point and remeasure. This measurement procedure takes care of the older boats without the tumblehome and the newer boats with the tumblehome. It shouldn’t really matter that much. If the measurement fails at that point, then there is a problem.
Again, don’t do anything yet! Let’s see how the rest of the class feels about this issue with their vote.

Skip Allen
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby RMDJBD » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:06 pm

To All and Frank

Just to let the class know, Yes I built the Hull, Deck and Rudder for the owners of the 3 boats that were too narrow at the 2011 Nat's in Charleston but I did not assemble the hulls in question. Those 3 hulls were built or finished to sailing state by Baron Bremmer of the Jacksonville club. I did not set the beam dimension's on the 3 boats.

To my knowledge there has been only 1 boat that measured to big on the beam and that was in 2005 Disneyland Nat's and that boat was owned by Frank Villa too, it was an old boat.

I am writing this to stop the rumor that I build illegal boats, cases in point:

Current Post by Frank Villa 07/01/2014, 01:03
I am thinking he has lost his mind as this is an RMD hull that he made..... possibly "bad Kool Aid"

Joe Walter Email " Motion to change class rules" To the Measurement Team 03/07/2014 12:37pm
"I heard all about how Bob Dudinsky had to try many times to prove his boats were legal in 2011. "How many times and how many calipers did you use to get the legal beam width, Bob?"

To this date that I know of, all the boats that I have built to " Just add water or ready to sail " have measured in.
Bob Dudinsky
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby daramos » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:51 pm

Frank
I would like to point out a few things to make sure the facts are clear here.
While Bob built the hull and deck for your boat he did NOT attach the deck to the hull. That means that he is not responsible for weather the deck was built to the Min or Maximum station deck beam measurement the builder is.
Bob was in charge of measuring the decks at the 2011 Charleston Nationals and the fact that your boat was one of three boats that were too narrow is unfortunate but hardly the measurers fault so I would have to say that he did not partake of any Bad Kool Aid. If you were taking delivery of the boat at that time and were informed that there was a problem with weather the boat was legal maybe you should have refused deliver until the boat conformed to the current measurement policy. Does the -1mm at station 30 make a difference.....personally I think not but the boat is currently outside of the measurement constraints that were in place at the time the boat was built. It is now up to the class sec weather a waver will be possible and personally I think that should be the case here.

There also seems to be some confusion to the meaning of station beam Measurement and beam. People keep referring to the term "max beam" when referring to the station beam measurement. There is nowhere in the rule that refers to the measurement as being at the "max beam" it only refers to "Beam". By the definitions given by others "beam" refers to one location "Max Beam" on the hull and it will not necessarily be at a station. Max beam is at only at ONE location on a hull but we are talking about the station beam measurement not max beam. The measurement policy for the past 30 years has been that the station beam measurement was taken at the Sheer or hull/deck Joint. Until the current policy was put in place the tumblehome was not taken into account. The proposed new rule will return the measurement to the sheer hull/deck joint where it has been for the past 30 years. The only boats that are effected by this change to the rules are newly built boats or rebuilt boats with new decks. If your boat was built prior to the new measurement policy then the boat is measured under the policy in place at the time of the boats building. The reason boats are grandfathered is so that older boats are not made obsolete under a new rule or policy.
David Ramos
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http://www.rcyachts.com

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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby fvracer1 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:49 pm

As most of you know, I am not the smartest guy in the world or make delusions to think otherwise. I had no idea until recently that builders (not hull mfr) screwed with hull width. I just thought that putting a hull in tension Would not be a good thing and that builders just glued the deck on the existant hull and everybody was the same, just like a Soling (;-)))) The boat in question being too wide at Disney was AMYA #91 Cork hull I bought it used from a fellow in Pennsylvania (cuz it was BLUE)named it Wolverine. Rick came back and said it measured in as the rules back then allowed that measurement and it was grandfathered. I was allowed to race at Disney, otherwise Rick and Frank would have had to listen to my wife Linda for the four days she had to spend at Disney watching you geeks sail toy boats and her Frankie couldn't cuz his toy boat was too wide........funny, now I am too narrow and I do not dare tell her. To all I make no accusations to RMD for building illegal hulls. I thought this was a one design class and everybody was the same, dimensionally, save the different sterns.
FV
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby Capt. Flak » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:33 pm

The EC12 Class is NOT, I repeat, NOT a One-Design Class. It never has been and it never will be. It is a RESTRICTED Class. If it were a One-Design Class, all boats would come fully built with all parts, rigs, sails and radio equipment ready to sail from licensed manufacturers OR, they would come in a box kit with every part, rig, and sail, right down to the nuts and bolts and there would be a set of instructions spelling out every detail of how to put it together.

All the measurements would then be the same. All the keels would be filled with the exact same shape and weight of lead. All the decks would be the same. All the rigs would be the same. The only thing you could do to make your boat stand out in the crowd would be to choose your paint color.

And, if it were a One-Design class, the measurement rules would be a lot more simple and this discussion would not be needed.

Also to Bob Dudinsky: That was a private email between just the members of the measuring team and I had already apologized to you personally for the error in my facts. Shame on you for trying to bolster your argument with a past mistake.
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby Rick West » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:56 pm

Correct and should not be confused by fact the hull is a one-design hull.
...94 [8D]
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:47 am

Frank,

It is also important to mention that your experience at both Disney and Charleston is one of the reasons the measurement policy was created. You purchased two boats in good faith that they would measure in at a Regional or National event. Its a common mistake to think that a boat that is registered with the class that it is also class legal. It is the skippers responsibility to make sure, before they get in the car and drive to an event that it is. Most do not. With the new measurement policy in place, boats are being measured ahead of time which has two positive out comes, one, if their is a problem, you have time to fix it or request a variance if it cannot be before you get in the car. The second is the class does not waste precious time measuring boats prior to starting racing.

Personally, I think it's a very positive step for the class and will prevent the type of experiences you have had for future travelers.
Chuck
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby bigfoot55 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:54 am

Re: the three boats that were found narrow at 2011 NCR
UPDATE TO THE UPDATE
Third boat has been re-measured under the class policy. It was done by Germer and passed in all particulars.

So to recap:
Three boats were found narrow. Had the boats been built to the stated class spec, they would all have been fine. But they were built to be on the narrow edge of the tolerance. All had long compression posts, which pulled the sides in when installed.
One had compression post shortened, but has been re-decked anyway.
One had compression post shortened and passed.
One had post shortened but remains 7mm under specification at one station(1mm under the allowed 6mm tolerance). THIS BOAT HAS BEEN REPORTED REMEASURED USING IMPERIAL (inches) NOT METRIC DIMENSIONS, AND IS THUS RIGHT ON MINIMUM TOLERANCE. AS THE RULE IS LISTED IN BOTH IMPERIAL AND METRIC DIMENSIONS, EITHER CAN BE USED. METRIC ROUND OFF IS A FACTOR.
AGAIN-THE LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

While these three boats have been much ado about nothing, the rule needs to be clear, one way or the other.
As the ballot has been received, please vote.

Thanks
TP
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby fvracer1 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:55 pm

As reported above, by using Imperial measure, my boat measures in using a .25" tolerance(allowable). I have not read the motion and could care less where the boats going forward are measured, but I am concerned about boats that are currently minimally out of spec. Is there verbage in the motion that would grandfather these older boats in? My concern is the strength of the class in numbers in the fleet. Give Reichard or Ramos an out of spec boat and the results will be the same I would assume.

Frank Vella 1982
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby Capt. Flak » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:27 pm

The rules are the rules with respect to the class specs at each station. They are clear and the plus or minus allowance is also clear. The issue is that the rule was changed in 2005 and the word SHEER was removed. I do not think anyone thought there would be an issue at the time, but it left open to interpretation for builders to set the stations measuring at the sheer (which for years was considered the correct place) OR to include the tumblehome on the hull and measure at the widest part of the hull at each station.

When a boat is built narrow, as is the case with Frank's boat, it can fail (and did) measurement at the sheer. However, it passed measurement when the tumblehome was included.

That in a nutshell is the reason for the motion, to define the place to measure the beam at each station.

Regardless if the motion passes or not, ALL boats built and registered with the Class between 2005 and 2015 MAY be measured at either OR both points (tumblehome or sheer) and if one or both points measures within spec, it is legal. Boats that fail to measure in regardless if they are measured at the sheer or tumblehome are not class legal.

Boats built prior to 2005 are measured at the sheer.

The bottom line for builders is to stop pushing the envelope by building to the max or min allowances. A boat built to the class specs will almost never be found illegal. The .25 inch or 6mm plus or minus allowance was not intended to be a design option. It was intended to give the home builder some wiggle room.
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby greerdr » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:46 pm

O.K.
Lots of smoke;not much fire.
We(Palm Beach Gardens) did a measure party-a great time over-all.No wind and the pool was cooler than anywhere else on this 94' day.
Only 2 of 15 boats did not pass.
We used calipers as suggested by Skip Allen (all 4 of his built boats down here hit the exact mid-point by the millimeter).
If a boat did not meet caliper number (4 boats)which included the "tumblehome",we measured the hull-deck beam.2 boats were in fact 2 millimeters narrower there and passed.
The 2 boats that failed:1 was 1 mm fat at station 30 and the other 3mm fat at stations 25,30,& 35.
I know-you are saying "WHAT-my tape measure only has INCHES-whats this Millimeter crap?"
Jon Luscomb takes this very seriously,and bought long legged calipers and used millimeters for this evolution.
Only 1 of his and 1 of my boats failed measurement.
(i'll be sailing #152 until I seat a new deck)
This is a good discussion for us to have and I think the vast majority of boats will be within the numbers.
This gives the class a firm footing in the future when discussing any possible advantage based on hull shape as all will have been measured and approved.
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby Rick West » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:31 pm

Per notice of voting result by the Class Secretary:
Thank you all for supporting a tradition in building dating back to the 95 Standard hull that will preserve the aesthetics of the
EC12 hull. And thank you to Bob Dudinsky and Dave Ramos for the courage to appose a measurement process that un-traditionally included the dreaded Tumblehome in the beam measurement by a legal ease challenge. Now we can have what is a good measurement process to be as it should have been.
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Re: Class Rules Changes: Motion 2 Beam Measurement

Postby fvracer1 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:01 am

Thank you Joe for standing up and supporting the 'loophole' that was created and you had to enforce. We may all now move forward and put this ugly issue to bed. Thanks again Joe.

Frank Vella
USA 1982
Soling 1 Meter Class Secretary
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