Mast length at the 2011 EC-12 Nationals

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Mast length at the 2011 EC-12 Nationals

Postby s vernon » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:30 pm

?????
I know it is still early, but we need to be told some time if this is going to be an issue. Why wait?

8.0 MAST
8.1 Maximum mast height (inclusive of mast crane) shall not exceed 72" (1829 mm) above the deck.

Any other surprises in store? (Mast length has not been an issue at sny previous national championship that I have attended.) I assume wide keels will be grandfathered. I always loved the picture on the old Hartman site of the glass hull with (no gel coat of course and) the sanded places on the side of the keel.

I think it is best to cut the top rather thna the bottom as a crooked mast bottom can sit funny and want to bend off to one side.

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Postby greerdr » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:48 pm

I distinctly recall Jack Ward walking around and finding me 1/16" too tall.
I filed off the offending "c---" hair (off the top as you recommend) and he didn't even want to remeasure me.
Recall we are talking DECK as the base-not the mast step slab we mostly have.
I think a waterline tank test is a much more important metric.

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Postby bigfoot55 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:18 am

The responsibility of the skipper is to bring a boat to sanctioned events that complies with the class rules.
All skippers are responsible to do this no matter if they got the boat from prior owner, built it or had it made by a commissioned builder.
This includes new boats, old boats, sails and sail markings.
http://ec12.org/Admin/ClassRules.htm

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Postby Tim » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:46 am

Is the 72" mearsured from the deck or the top of Mast Step which is permenatly mounted on top of the deck?

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Postby DBrawner » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:24 am

Tim,
It is measured from the deck, not the mast step.

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Postby Rick West » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:17 pm

The rule, as stated in Scott's post, is the rule and is very clear. It has been there since I joined the class in 1994. It is part of the Building Website and the mast step discussed.

What is the issue? What surprises are there here? Is this opening a closet? Is there something in measurements of specifications in the Class Rules for a sanctioned event that is a surprise?

The fleet is responsible to prepare a boat for sailing within the rules. As in the RRS we expect all to do the right thing and not have to stand on a parade ground for inspection each month for a regatta. From time to time we address matters that come up that are of concern. Reading about it here is not the process for concerns.

Unless there is a background movement to enforce the rules by continuous inspection, this discussion is dumb. Let's be specific and I will address it here before the fleet.

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Postby Tim » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:18 pm

DB,
Thank you. That is what I thought.
My closet doors are shut.

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Postby Rick West » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:58 am

I take it there are no questions regarding NCR measurements that might be conducted? There was no response to mine listed above.

It is the responsibility of the entry to ensure the legality of the boat per the class rules and specifications and other policies pertaining to documentation of the boat and the membership status of the entry. This pertains to the NOR as well.

Measurements on random items have been going on at the NCR since the full inspection of 2005. There can always be a full inspection of a boat should there be a question as to her legality. Each boat at the 2011 NCR will be looked over but not full inspected but for a couple of things members think should be checked.

We are the largest class by activity in the nation and accordingly very familiar with each other. Sportsmanship and polite relations should manage overall than policing.

The issue of rudder legality has been stated and will be as it is now till voted upon next year by the class. Whereas, a motion to this will be made and submitted to the AMYA for ballot printing, I call on all of you to forward to me by email (not here in the forum) suggestions for any rule change that will still be consistent to the rule intent but better clarified if needed.

You are currently voting on two numbered rules in this manner. There is no issue with discussing legalities and rule fairness on the forum here but it should be preceded by a suggestion to me and understanding the response that follows, then move to a public discussion if needed. This heads off the chance for misconceptions and produces the meat of a rules discussion. Such discussions should have something specific in the core so the subject is not lost.


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Postby Rick West » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:12 pm

There has been an official objection to measuring some things and not all. I respect that view and it was presented to me personally and properly by email. However, it began here without specifics and in public.

Hence, we will do a full blown measurement of all specifications including sails, rudder size and keels. The four center stations of the beam will be measured and the rudder area as well.

This will depart from some of the more relaxed processes we had hoped and require ALL competitors to be at the lake on Wednesday very early. We will be set up and ready at 1200 and hope to be done by 1600 or the rules seminar will be cancelled. We will get additional help at class expense. Be there and be ready at 1200.

No problem with this. I need to make this comment. It started here and in public. Any competitor not known to the fleet that will be attending could be a raider and cheater and if not will not be in contention to the top six. History confirms this. This will ferret out those in the end. Sailmakers that are accepted by the class will have their sails measured anyway instead of homemade only. In the past a trusted sailmaker has been asked to provide the templates. John B will provide this. Is there an objection to this fox?

Lastly, you will not find anywone that we know out of compliance. Those new will need to seek local expertise in measurements because if it does not fit the package it will not sail. In some items I will hold court by the CAC present.

Thank you. I am out and setting this up.

Unedited and moving on...

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Postby skip241 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:12 pm

Our class has rules, they include measurements. These measurements are very clear. Supposedly we are all adults. None of us make car payments, send our kids to college or make house payments from the prize money we win at our toy boat regatta's. If you have to win the $5 trophy by not playing by the rules, then you really don't belong with the rest of us who do play by the rules. Come on guys! These are toy boats and it's suppose to be a hobby. Believe me, none of you trying to stretch the rules are going to be designers of the next America's Cup boat or asked to drive one.

Just my thoughts!!!!

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Postby greerdr » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:32 pm

Well spoken .
Some of us do not have a tank to float our boats for the 42"-43" waterline;and I, for one, really like having the opportunity to measure in to see where am am floating.
I am so proud of our class in being so willing to be as "transparent" in measurement as any skipper as a competitor would like.

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Postby s vernon » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:31 pm

I was looking at Bob Larsen's sails yesterday. He has a stitched double panel of TriSpi across the bottom of the the main and jib. I think that is a great idea to prevent foot curl and does not hurt anyone. Is it legal?

14.0 SAILS - GENERAL
14.1 Sails shall be made of polyester-based material (Dacron, Mylar, Terylene) and may be single or multi-paneled construction.
14.2 Corner reinforcements, broad seam reinforcements, and batten pockets are unrestricted as to material.
14.3 Corner reinforcements shall extend a maximum of 8 inches (200 mm) from the corners of the mainsail and 6 inches (150 mm) from the corners of the jib.
14.4 Eyelets shall be placed entirely within 5/8 inch (16 mm) of each sail corner.
14.5 Sails may be measured on or off the spars and battens shall be fitted when measuring.
14.6 When measuring sails, foot and leech measurements shall be equal to or less than the smooth curve produced by a constant section batten connecting the corners of the sail and the intervening measurement points, with no bending in the batten induced beyond those corners.
14.7 Three sets of sails and/or rigs totaling no more than 3 mains and 3 jibs shall be allowed for use in a regatta, the three sets shall be declared and measured prior to the first race.
15.0 MAINSAIL
15.1 Mainsails shall comply with the measurements in Table 1.
15.2 There shall be four (4) battens in the leech and no such batten shall exceed 5 inches (127 mm) in length or 3/8 inch (9 mm) in width.
15.3 The mainsail shall be attached to the aft centerline of the mast by using a boltrope or internal sail track slides in a grooved mast; or by using hooks, tubes, or loops attached to a jackline.
15.4 The foot of the mainsail may be attached to the upper centerline of the main boom using the attachment methods specified in 15.3.
15.5 The tack or clew of the mainsail may be attached to the boom using hooks, loops, or other similar attachment devices.
16.0 JIB
16.1 Jibs shall comply with the measurements in Table 1.
16.2 The jib may have two (2) battens in the leech and no such batten shall exceed 2 inches (50 mm) in length or 3/8 inch (9 mm) in width.
16.3 The luff tabling shall enclose the jibstay. The use of a second (external) headstay is permitted.
16.4 The foot of the jib may be attached to the upper centerline of the jib boom using the attachment methods specified in 15.3.
16.5 The tack or the clew of the jib may be attached to the boom using hooks, loops, or other similar attachment devices.

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Postby Rick West » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:03 am

Scott,
I think I have made it clear in the matters of rules changes and interpretation that there is a process outside of a public forum to lodge such questions. You continue to resist this process. What is the agenda you pursue in these quests?

This issue of curl in the sails has been around since the introduction of PX75 in the early 2000s. There have been numerous remedies. Is it now an issue of rule and not sharing? Because you are public first I wonder at your motives. What are they?

Are you advocating through this that there are no tolerances regardless of time passing with some rules and the consideration of their validity? Or, that management needs to spend continuous time to the state of the rules during this time?

It is the fleet that advises the need to review. There is a process if deemed necessary. What is your agenda, Scott? Where do these perceived illegalities impact your recreational fun and hence the organization that provides it?

Questions are asked and there is no response. It is time to respond, Scott.

The base point in the rules for all that follows is 1.1. Consider it.


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Postby s vernon » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:57 am

Rick,

On 8/18/11 you said - "Let's be specific and I will address it here before the fleet."

I thought that meant what it seems to mean.

Sorry I got carried away. I think the rule does not limit us to a single sheet/ply of material and that is fine.


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