Dumas Hull

[Stephen Crewes]

at least we made it to 2 pages mates.

[fvracer1]

Dumas hull question from new guy. Why is the Dumas hull unregisterable? Is it much faster? Did Dumas not cough up appropriate monies to the class? Is the boat that much different than say an early Black or Hickman. Playing devil's advocate,say I should buy a Dumas and change the deck, would a well trained eye be able to pick up the nuances of the hull difference? Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks....

"When the cannon fires, harden up, tack or get out of my way"

[Larry Ludwig]

Dumas chose not to participate in the new standard for the molds, and subsequently absorb the sizeable cost to the Mfg. Therefore, they and other suppliers that chose not to comply were listed and all of their hulls to be registered. When the deadline passed, they would no longer be allowed to register. Basically... to prevent what you are wanting to do. It tied up the loose ends as sometimes when building shuts down... some hulls escape and get out into the public and may be built incorrectly.

To keep control, and prevent someone from getting a hull (on Ebay a perfect example) and then finding out when they took it to a regionals or Nats that the hull was not legally constructed... a "Grace Period was allowed to register the remaining hulls. It elapsed on Feb 29th of last year, after Dumas chose not to upgrade along with the others.

Is the Dumas hull faster? No, far from it. It is considerably heavier than the current hulls now available, and the deck which is quite a nice looking unit, is almost triple the weight of the current lightest versions.

The hull in question was purchased by one of our own here, and I suppose that the seller had more than one of them as I notice that the exact same auction is running again. I wrote to the seller, and asked that they make mention in their description that the hull was NOT a current AMYA approved hull, but they ignored me and made no such mention....

[Larry Ludwig]

Oh, and "would a well trained eye notice the difference" well... in the first place your eye would only need be trained well enough to read the label inside the hull which by class rule must be visible and shows clearly the manufacturer of the hull, serial number and the class registration number assigned to it.

As far as telling by eye... well.. you can never say for sure, but there are definite differences in construction and molding that can let the cat out of the bag.

[Frank Angel]

Hi Frank (fvracer1),
While I was writing this Larry beat me to the punch. Thanks Larry for answering the question.[:)] Since I went to the trouble to write this, I’m going to post it anyway. It will establish a time line and record.
You can find the Dumas Story in the Secretary’s Reports on the Class web page at http://www.ec12.com/admin/admin.htm. Any new members should read these reports to bring themselves up to date. These entire reports were also sent to the EC12 Net on 01-21-04 and 02-27-04.
In a nutshell, Dumas would not adopt the ’95 standard. This wasn’t a spur of the moment decision; they’ve been grand fathered for 10 years.<u>This string has gone on long enough. All the question have been answered.</u> The relative parts of the reports are copied below.
Frank Angel [8)]

Secretary’s Report 01-21-04
The Dumas EC12
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT READ: Prior to this administration several attempts were made to communicate with Dumas Products regarding the current hull standard used by certified manufacturers. The class has offered to assist Dumas with retooling to upgrade the Heritage EC12 like we do with current builders. Dumas has not been responsive. The issue has been pending and this week it was decided to make one more offer to Dumas hoping they will move forward and continue the long association with the class. They may not wish to do so and a timeline has been established for March 1, 2004. We hope this will not be the case. It should be noted by the class, through you and all those you know, that Dumas EC12 hulls purchased AFTER this date MAY NOT be accepted for registration. You will be advised here as this progresses.

by Rick West

Secretary Report 2-29-04
by Rick West
The Dumas Heritage EC12
Previously, I have reported that the class will be ending grandfathered registrations of the Dumas EC12 as it exists today in design. I have been in contact with Dumas and it is hoped that they will continue to be a supplier of the EC12 hull within the class hull standard program in the future.

The class will no longer accept the current Dumas Heritage EC12 for registration following February 29, 2004. Any registration request for this hull after that date must be accompanied with a bill of sale dated before March 1, 2004 from a commercial vender. This applies only to new and unregistered hulls or boats and does not apply to the sale and transfer of currently registered boats. Dumas Products Inc., will be removed from the authorized manufacturer’s list for the present.

[Stephen Crewes]

Nitro boy, naughty , naughty, you can't pull the plug for a novice asking a question?

If the Dumas was slower , you would not have a need to ban it? It would ban itself.

And Larry have you the right to "DEVELOPE" a one design?

Loose words , sink ships!

[Stephen Crewes]

I haven't had this much laughter since I don't know when?

Your actually buying these Dumas boats off this guy on Ebays . Well I reckon he thinks he's got a "MILCH COW",.... YOU.

[Stephen Crewes]

fvracer, Now if I tell you quickly the difference between Dumas and say Trasesure Tooling hulls, we might not get into too much trouble for it is History now and they might not take us out behind the race triangle and scold us.

Dumas is skinny around the keel thickness area, yes it has a F/G deck and the last two or three beam cross measurements don't measure up. We noticed this in 1980 Circa. But the underlying theme is that these boats (Treasure tooling and Dumas) were about the same in 1984. In the Worlds Championships EC12 in 1987, the 1984 Standard rule was used.

In as far as performace. While the class is controlled by Waterline and sail area and weight, it doesn't matter if the new boats are lighter or for that matter, heavier. The purist say that that is not quite good enough! I was recently told on this forum was that"THE Moulds" were in such a bad state that they couldn't be moulded and that they had to make alternate moulds. Be that as it may. This policy is going to go all wrong in the future for it has got too many holes in it. As we are seeing on Ebays.

I hope fvracer that that reply was short enough not to get you into too much bother.

Now on the other hand our country is going about EC12 another way. We are trying to get all our boat(EC12s) to measure into the same rule and to do a good job of it , so we don't have to review it for at least 10 years. I'm not going to presume this is good for your country fvracer. But this is what we are doing. Perhaps coming from the other end, to keep ALL our boats racing.

[DBrawner]

Stephen,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This policy is going to go all wrong in the future for it has got too many holes in it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As the person who came up with the policy, I am curious as to the holes you see. Please expand on your thought to help me along.

Thanks, Dave

[Stephen Crewes]

Dave would you prefer to do it on post or off post?

Steve

[DBrawner]

Steve:
Post away.

Dave

[Stephen Crewes]

Dave , I would prefer to do it off post.

[DBrawner]

Steve:
The statement was made here so we should keep the explanation here. I don't want to be accused off hiding something.

Dave

[fvracer1]

OK....I understand now. We are trying to develop an EC12 class here in Ann Arbor and obviously you guys know of the boats for sale occasionally on Ebay. Most of the skippers looking for boats(read scarce and "cheap" guys) were asking about the Dumas. I knew they were not legal unless registered, but I did not know why. Stupid move on Dumas part in my opinion. They had the distribution infrastructure in place and chose not to utilize it. You guys will make Page 3 for sure.

"When the cannon fires, harden up, tack or get out of my way"

[Larry Ludwig]

The Dumas is a fine boat for what it does. It allows someone that doesn't have one the opportunity... to sail. As long as they know BEFORE they buy it that it can't be registered I see no problem what so ever.

Another item that is shared between full sized and model sailboats would be that they both retain their value remarkably well. I built Hobie Cats at the local shop when I was displaced from my career and Hobie's marketing program at the tima allowed for you to sell your used boat back to the dealer, for up to 4 years in reasonable condition FOR THE PRICE YOU PAID NEW.

Used boats were every bit as much in demand as new ones. There was not a penny to be saved buying used. The same can be shown here. I do not doubt for a moment, that the guy that has bought, and will buy the 2 Dumas boats on Ebay will most certainly get their money back out of it when/if they decide to sell.


and for Treasure....

As far as the IEC-12 is concerned, I say you lads should pony up about $1,000 USD for a new mold and knock yourselves out. That is what I will be doing... otherwise, you can enjoy your version among yourselves because the standard here has been set.

The advantage of 30 years hindsight is obvious. Your organization is not merely fortunate enough to benefit from it, common sense would say you were required to learn from others past mistakes to avoid the same yourself. Before improvement may be achived, a starting point must be established.

Oh, and as far as "Developing" a One Design, as a matter of fact I am actually developing a new class.