Dumas Rudder

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Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Wed May 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Can anyone steer me in the direction of a Rudder for my newly aquired Dumas?
The previous owner had a broken, and well, wrong rudder on the boat.


Hopefully this tells you about which version the boat is:
992 DUM1684 May-12 Eddie
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Wed May 16, 2012 1:45 pm

Looks like I may have found one through the AMYA Want-Ad classifieds, should be on it's way this week.

Please don't let that stop anyone who may have some extra information on the Dumas rudders from responding.

Thanks
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:49 pm

Good News/ Bad news. / Worse News:

Bad News:
The rudder I received from an AMYA Member didn't fit. I got 2 of them, and neither worked unfortunately (see more forthcoming)

Good News:
In my search, I contacted Dumas.
They located, and offered to pour me a brand-new rudder from the mould. So, that means anyone with a Dumas boat can contact "Doug" at Dumas products, and have a brandy-new rudder built. I have photos of the mould.
Here are some low quality ones. PM Me if you would like higher-resolution photos.
DSCN1177.jpg
Rudder Mould
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DSCN1178.jpg
Rudder Mould
DSCN1178.jpg (67.36 KiB) Viewed 26267 times


Worse News:
In checking the sizing of the rudder that would be produced from Dumas, the vertical height is slightly small, and would not fit my keel-shape.
My keel is 4 7/8ths tall, while the Dumas mould appears to be 4 5/8, leaving a gap near the base of the keel.

If anyone can provide any assistance or direction I would be apreciative.
IMG_1453.jpg
Keel
IMG_1453.jpg (32.04 KiB) Viewed 26267 times
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:57 pm

Here is one of the rudders I recieved in the mail, that unfortunately didn't work.
It's supposedly a Dumas (and probably is, with the aft end extended) but doesn't fit.

Photos of a 4 5/8ths rudder installed in a 4 7/8ths keel.
The rudder is in-fact the same between both shots, the flash just washed out the color.

IMG_1469.jpg
Rudder
IMG_1469.jpg (57.14 KiB) Viewed 26267 times

IMG_1451.jpg
Rudder Installed
IMG_1451.jpg (28.39 KiB) Viewed 26267 times
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby bigfoot55 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:16 pm

My 1970's Treasure Tooling boat had the same rudder shape. It also was not quite right in fitting the cut out of the keel. I added thickened resin to the top of the cut out, and sanded to fit. You could do the same with the top of the rudder which is what I thought I had done til I looked at the boat.
I made a almost barn door rudder for it, so that is always a possibility if you want a perfect fix.
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:32 pm

Thanks for your Reply.
The post on the rudder I have is the correct diameter, so I do have that option to bondo/fair something in and make it work, so I'm not totally "up a creek"
If I can find a proper OEM Rudder though, I'd rather do that.




However,
I'm wondering if my boat could actually be something other than a Dumas?
The previous owner painted over the hull-tags, so I can't confirm a serial number on the hull. But it was in the registry as #992. The registration has been transferred to me as a Dumas.

Given that the mould for the rudder produced by Dumas would be too short for this keel, I'm wondering if there is infact nothing wrong with my blue rudder, but rather my boat is from a different manufacturer?
Did any of the manufacturers produce a keel length of 4 7/8"? I doubt Dumas made a boat with a rudder that fit as poorly as whats in that photo.

Make sense?
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby bigfoot55 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:07 pm

According to our history, http://ec12.org/About/History.htm, Dumas got the molds from Treasure Tooling. Were they ever perfect? I do not know.
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:39 pm

Gotcha.
It seems strange to me that Dumas would produce a rudder that is SOOO far off from perfect if, in-fact this is a Dumas Hull. The height gap is very noticeable.
The shape in this photo is wrong, in terms of both height, and width (that you cant see) where the keel is wider.

Anyways, If anyone has any contributions I would be appreciative.

IMG_1451.jpg
IMG_1451.jpg (28.39 KiB) Viewed 26254 times
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby s vernon » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:28 pm

I am not an expert on all things Dumas EC-12, but I believe that Dumas only produced the rudder that is smaller at the top than at the bottom. I do not think they ever made a barn door rudder. I saw on rcgroups where you posted on page 2 of the Australian thread that the Dumas type rudder did not fit well either.

A bit narrow might not be a big issue. The DBY hulls are first generation 95 standard with the bottom of the rudder cavity being wider that the top. but they all (?) use a narrow all the way "RMD width" rudder (which is made ot fit the second generation 95 standard hulls) and they go fast and win a lot of races and championships.
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:11 pm

In Regards Dumas Making different moulds:
Yes, As confirmed by Doug at Dumas, they only produced one boat, and, only produced one Rudder.
They never did produce a barn door rudder. What they have is shown in the above photos of the black Mould.

In Regards to the RCGroups Thread:
What I recieved and plugged into my boat is Supposed to be a Dumas rudder, provided by Chuck Aiken. I'm un-sure if it actually is or not..
Looking at the mould photos that I got from Dumas, I would say that they are NOT dumas rudders.


In regards to the Rudder installed being narrow:
Yes, The top of the rudder cavity in the hull is narrower than the bottom.
It measures 7/16" on the top, and 5/8" on the bottom.

Does this give any additional confirmation as to what the hull is?

Here are some photos,
Again using the wrong side of the ruler, as that's where the fine-marks are... Just use 34" as a 0 mark (obviously).

Top.jpg
7/16" Top of Rudder Cavity
Top.jpg (20.76 KiB) Viewed 26244 times

IMG_1748.jpg
5/8" Bottom of Rudder Cavity
IMG_1748.jpg (73.02 KiB) Viewed 26244 times
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Posts: 57
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:43 pm

When I bought the boat, I first researched it in the Database, and it came up as a Dumas.
We were sailing 12s on the pond, (one of which is a Dumas in my club) and I wasn't going to touch the boat with a 10-foot pole if it had any of the ballasting issues that I know Dumas 12s have. The gentleman brought down 2 boats. One of which was clearly a Dumas with ballast issues. I passed at that boat.

I floated this one, and wighed it with a digital scale. And, It looked good, So I took it.
It didn't exhibit any of the down-by-the stern properties of the true Dumas boats.

I took it home under the impression that maybe it was a different version of the Dumas (to later find out they only made 1)
And, I assumed someone had already done ballast re-location work to it.



Here's a few more photos of the hull, if it gives any clues to anyone that it may be infact anything other than a Dumas.
(Note, that all Dumas boats I've seen have the spray-rail in a FULL V section. This is split in 2 to make room for the mast step.)
The white deck next to it is my Hickman (with aftermarket deck)

Deck.jpg
Deck
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Stern.jpg
Stern
Stern.jpg (190.59 KiB) Viewed 26236 times

Ballast.jpg
Ballast
Ballast.jpg (7.79 KiB) Viewed 26236 times
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby Rick West » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:46 pm

Eddie,
The Dumas is not part of the generally accepted EC12 Class recognized models for racing. We dropped the line in 2004 because there were too many complaints by members buying the boat and not be able to keep up in competition. There were a lot of other issues and Dumas Products agreed that the Heritage was not aligned with the class standard. They also said they would not upgrade to the standard. You have been on this quest for over a month with little to no response from the members at 12 Discussions. My early email in this was to build a rudder for the model(s) that you have. You could have had one by now. We cannot help you other than this suggestion apparently.

I know you are trying to promote the EC12 in you NE area but things will be dim if with the Dumas. Tom Phillips and I agree that we have answered all that we can on this subject. BTW, the photos of rudders you have presented are not original Dumas. The only Dumas I have seen with a Barn Door rudder was hand made.

In your area are great craftsmen that could help you make on through the club associations you know. Sorry but the Dumas is dead except in a complete refit from a bare hull, I.E., Ricky Gerry's 763, winner of the 2009 Morgan Black International.
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:12 am

Thanks Rick.

In terms of this boat being competitive on any level above my local club, I don't have a single delusion of grandeur. I know, without a shadow of a doubt that this boat is considered obsolete in terms of competition to the upper levels of the EC-12 class. I have absolutley positively zero intention to try and compete with this boat against any form of "serious" EC-12 racing.


So, Why did I bother with it?
Well, there is nothing at all wrong with this boat at club level, and would be plenty competitive at club-level in the right hands.
Heck, right now we have another Heritage Dumas, with single panel dacron sails and a wood mast. The skipper is very, very good, and is actually somewhat competitive with a very, very bad boat.
My club has begun sailing EC-12s this season. This boat was bought with the intention to be used as a loaner to other members, (We would be best advised to not turn anyone away because their boat is less-than brand-new) or for me to fool around with in the ocean, without caring about corrosion. (I can see the ocean from where I currently sit) I picked this boat up, and have enough spare parts, and already built rigs that I can put this boat on the water for under $250 out-of pocket (Including the price of purchasing the boat). That is complete & ready to sail with a "Obsolete" Version 1 RMG 280 winch, Jib Twitcher and a quality rig.

I'm not looking to re-fit this boat to make it competitive. I'm only looking to stick a rudder on it, stick a rig on it, and set it loose. I bet it will win a few races if I do that.. and that's all I want out of it. If I was looking for a competitive boat, I'd go spend $2,500 and order a brand new set-up from Ramos. But, to do that and offer it as a loaner to my club would be a (costly) mistake.

I am trying to promote the EC-12, both locally within my club to get it going, and through other things like photos, and videos online so people can look & see what the EC-12 is all about. Why? In my very short time sailing this boat, I love it's properties. It is a polar-opposite to the Marblehead class. As you know the M is all about Aspect ratio. The 12 is a totally different, and equally as enjoyable sail.




Anyways, In terms of putting a rudder on this boat.
In contacting Dumas, they found the mould, and offered to build me a rudder for $25 plus $7 S&H, That's $32 out of pocket.
I would MUCH rather purchase a rudder than build one, if possible. both on time building & convinence. If I can plug in a rudder for $32 I can move onto other projects (installing my Jib-twitcher)
But, the mould presented by Dumas appears to me to be wrong, and off by 2/8ths of an inch..... A large ammount. So I ask for assistance prior to building one myself. If their offering is off by that ammount, it starts the gears in my head that my boat could be something other than advertised. I havent seen alot of Dumas' but I havent' seen any off by that ammount.


Sure, if the time spent posting and searching was time spent building, I could have a home-made rudder on the boat by now.
But, the times I go searching and poisting are times that I wouldn't be building. I.E. it's late on the East-Coast now. I just got home from a night out.. thought I'd take 10 minutes to unwind and continue the conversation before calling it a night.. Not an opportunity to pick up the sandpaper.
The time invested to find out if Dumas had the rudder mould took 1 phone call, and a week to wait for them to call-back and confirm they had it. I asked them to email photos so I could confirm that the shape looked right before making the order, but it appears wrong to me.

Maybe it is I that is wrong, and that Dumas rudder does infact fit the hull I have. I'd like nothing more than to be wrong on the situation.
In that case, I'd love to spend $32 and order a rudder, and move-on.
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Re: Dumas Rudder

Postby breakwater » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:16 am

Well,
I am very happily and humbly wrong on the situation.
I uncovered the hull badge this morning, while listening to an inch of rain come down.

The hull badge should have never been covered up, but atleast It's back open now.
The height of the mould presented to me in Dumas' email threw me for a loop, and spun me off thinking it could be something else.. but I guess I'm good to go.

Another 12 hits the water, with a $32 rudder on-board!

If anyone else needs a rudder for their Dumas, Well, They have the mould!
Hull-Tag.jpg
Hull-Badge
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Posts: 57
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