No rights on the inside at a mark rounding

[Chuck Luscomb]

A question came up at a recent weekly sail that concerned me. While the fleet made it's way into a leeward mark, a boat clear astern took advantage of an opening between the clear ahead boat and the mark. The clear astern boat was able to sail inside the clear ahead boat and round the mark and the clear astern boat was not able to "tag him out".

In big boat sailing, the clear astern boat has no rights inside and the clear ahead boat is not required to defend or "tag him out" by sailing up to him to make contact. This seems to be the opposite in model boats but there is nothing stating this that I have found in Appendix E.

The question is simply this. Is the clear ahead boat required to defend his position through the mark rounding or must all boats clear astern stay as such until the boats exit the 4 boat length zone?

Thanks,

Chuck
#84

[kahle67]

Devil's advocate here.

People's depth perception differs greatly. If you leave a double wide barn door open and I am confident that you can't get me and that I won't foul you, I'm coming though. If I was wrong, I'll peel off and miss the mark.

It sucks but it happens often, especially in lighter air when a boat comes from behind with better headway and steerage. Not much you can do about it.



Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[tallastro]

I think I understand the situation but I'm having trouble with the "tag-him-out" part. It's clear that the overtaking boat has no rights. Are you saying that in big boat sailing you could protest the insider even if that boat caused no actions on your part to avoid contact while you round the mark? That's not the way I read the rules. I'll admit to being newish to this so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would say that simply being ahead is not a tactical position. Another boat can sail past you inside or outside providing they don't take room that you have rights to. Changing course to close the door may or may not be legal in a given situation (16.1). Contact with another boat intentionally should always violate the rules (14).

Off topic comment: This newish skipper now owns an EC12 and just needs to get it from FL to NC. I borrowed a boat for Elon last year and now I hope to be a more regular racer in the region.

John

[tag1945]

Chuck

Here is a quote from "Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing" by Dave Perry:

Page 174, Rule 18.2c

"US Sailing Appeal 5 is clear: "When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes room available to another boat that, under the rules, has no right to that room and makes no claim to it, that other boat may take advantage, at her own risk, of the room so given. In that case, she breaks no rule."

[Doug Wotring]

room given is open to being taken is the way I understand it.

if you overstand a mark....and someone can get through without fouling you your mistake.

haas happend numerous times to me...and I have also done it to others. only time I have been called on it is when my perspective was off and there really was not room

[kahle67]

John,

Where in Florida is your boat and who has it?



Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[bigfoot55]

AT YOUR OWN RISK as the appeal say-
But if you go inside despite being told you have no right, even with plenty of room to spare. a protest is likely and you will likely loose in committee. Been there done that. So go anyway and do a 360 if called.

[Rick West]

Sorry Tom, I am not buying it. If there is a raft up at the windward mark and no one is sailing but those coming from astern and clearly in no physical conflict, how can they be in conflict with the rule. The conflict is not stated. What would cause one to loose in a protest when they did not interfere with anyone one.

I am interested in the conversation but have not heard from anyone the foul other than being astern in open water. What am I missing here...must we dawdle till the flotsom clears so that the first to the mark rounds it? Sorry, I do not see that.

...94

[Doug Wotring]

Whitnesses whitnesses whitnesses,

Big hole, I sailed through it and 5 guys saw it.....I win protest

No Whitness.....likely lose

[Chuck Luscomb]

I guess the way I read this is that by simply taking advantage of an opening, however large, you do not break any rule as stated below under appeal 5.

If, however, the amount of that "room" at the mark is such that the ROW boat could if she wanted, make an defending manuver that <i>could</i> make contact with the clear astern boat, then a protest should be forth coming.

If the ROW boat is not able to make a defending manuver becuase she is out of reach of the clear astern boat, then I would disagree with the ROW boats hail claiming "no room" or "no rights".

I guess I have trouble with a ROW boats claim to the inside if they are not in a position to defend it.

Chuck
#84

<i>Rule 18.2c

"US Sailing Appeal 5 is clear: "When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes room available to another boat that, under the rules, has no right to that room and makes no claim to it, that other boat may take advantage, at her own risk, of the room so given. In that case, she breaks no rule."</i>

[tag1945]

Tom

I agree with Rick, The rules that apply to the situation are rule 12(Not Overlapped, Clear Astern shall keep clear) prior to reaching the 4 boat zone and continues after reaching the zone. At the zone, an additional rule, 18.2C is turned on, which prevents the clear astern boat from obtaining INSIDE RIGHTS. There is nothing in the rules that state the clear astern boat cannot sail inside the right a way boat. She just would not be protected by having rights and must stay clear of the right a way boat. As Scott stated, the right a way boat can steer any course she pleases and has further protection from 18.2D.

It would be in the right a way boat's interest not to leave too much inside room! Rule 16.1 is also in effect that might prevent the right a way boat from defending her rights.

[s vernon]

tag1945

You were doing good right up until you got it backwards. Rule 16 is specifically not in play under 18.2D. The outside right of way boat can turn up into the inside boat as she pleases to shut the door. If anyone saw the excellant semi-recent rule 18 gifs of Dellanbaugh while they were on the internet, he shows that in the last one. I made copies (and finally found them in the clutter), so Tom P there is hope that someday you will have them.

Scott

[bigfoot55]

We can all read the text of the rules, but ofter the devil is in the appeals cases. Having been involved in a protest in a similar situation, let me try to give a digest of what Ken Morrison explained to me.

-Yes, you can go in there BUT- at your own risk.
-IF the ROW boat protests you, you better have as Doug said, witnesses, ones that agree with YOU.
-Contact is no longer an issue, as the rules were changed so tagging was not necessary to avoid damage.

This assumes that the clear ahead boat(s) object. So, peel off or go through , but if you get protested, without witnesses who will back you up that you had room, better do a penalty turn. Without a replay on video tape, it would be neigh impossible to ACCURATELY determine if there was room or not. So the committee will rule against the clear astern boat.

[Chuck Luscomb]

Jeeze,

I was pretty sure the burden of proof lies with the person bringing the protest. They must have witnesses to prove that you did not have room. If the person cannot prove that you did not have room, then it becomes your word against his and most protest comittees will disallow the protest.

What you have just said is that the ROW boat can protest a clear astern boat who has made a move to the inside regardless of how much room he has left. I can agree if the ROW boat was close and making a seamen like rounding. If the ROW boat is not in a place to defend, and he simply says protest, then he owns "all" the water between him and the mark regardless of how much.

Chuck
#84

[Rick West]

I am still not buying it. If two or three boats clear ahead are playing match racing or have made contact that reduces their maneuverability in the zone and I pass them on the inside without interfering with their sailing, I fail to see a foul.

I will go back to my analogy above but more specifically. If a group of overlapped boats are rounding a mark, make contact and as a result become like a group obstruction (we have all seen this) and there is open water for a rounding by boats approaching from clear astern, that they cannot make the rounding by a hail, “you can’t go in thereâ€