No rights on the inside at a mark rounding

[bigfoot55]

I agree Rick, BUT- in a similar situation I got protested and lost the protest. I said I had plenty of room, he claimed he altered course to avoid hitting me. ROW boats rafted up no way could he do that. but- No video tape. Maybe Ken still has his explanation. It was very helpful.

Tom

[Chuck Luscomb]

Hi Rick,

Your point brings to light my point which is that if the ROW boat is unable to defend the inside weather he is rafted up or dead in the water, he cannot simply say "protest" and force any inside boat to do circles.

I am really struggling with the logic on this rule if the ROW boat can protest in this situation.

Chuck
#84

[Rick West]

Okay Tom, that was going to be my next point. ROW altering course because someone passing on the inside from clear astern in another matter. She is altering course because of Rule 14.

This raft up situation did happen at St. Pete last April and Morrison heard the protest. Four boats rafted up at the leeward mark. One of them protested six boats that rounded the mark from astern on the inside. Some of us were overlapped and make a proper rounding just to show there was room. Some did not behave and made contact with others and were ruled against for other reasons. There was video of the mess and those of us that rounded cleanly were not charged. My point at the hearing was that I did not interfere or make contact with the protester.

The damn thing took almost 45 minutes to hear while the regatta was stopped. There were other issues and not clearly an 18.3 thing but it was thought by the protester that no one could pass inside and round the mark as long as she was flotsom. I thought it was obsurd but the hearing was held.

Yes Chuck, I will agree and stand the ground that if ROW cannot defend then it is not a protest. Tom, there may have been other issues in your case. Altering course to avoid you would be one of them and I would do my turn in that case.

I have more to say on this "You cannot go in there" statement. First, it is not true and secondly it has been used to intimidate for so long that many think it is a rule. It is not. I remember another time that two boats were match racing each other at the leeward mark and one held off the other in a bear away tack and I slipped right through and ahead of both. They yelled at me all the way windward to the finish line for me to do a turn. Not!

What bothers me when the yelling starts over this is that all lose concentration for the important part, rounding the mark and getting on with racing afterwards.

...94

[bigfoot55]

Cass 63 final paragraph- emphasis mine
"When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes room available to another that has no rights under the rules to such room aND DOES NOT MAKE OR INDICATE ANY CLAIM TO IT, the other boat may take advantage, at her own risk, of the room so given."

[Chuck Luscomb]

Tom,

I get it. The making a claim to it when you really have no ability to defend the opening is what troubles me. If you can defend, then make your claim and get your circles. This I agree with. Simply defending by making claim to the void you have left because you have nothing else left to do while you watch a boat or boats sail past is what I have a problem with.

Don't get me wrong, I have been the clear ahead boat in this case but I deserved what I got.

Chuck
#84

[Rick West]

Good, I am outta here.

Uh, don't hit me when I try! LOL.

...94

[tag1945]

Keep Clear

"One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat."

In the 4 boat zone if a "Clear Astern boat" does not violate the above, then she can sail where she wants without breaking rule 18.2c, 18.2d.

If the space is there and you can "Keep Clear" of the ROW boat, your good.................

[s vernon]

Tom aka Tag1945

What about the actual words in rule 18.2(d) that say rule 16 is turned off, so the ROW boat can turn as quickly and as high (up to head to wind) as she wants, to try to shut the door on the inside boat?

Rule 18.2 Giving Room; Keep clear
18.2(d) Changing course to round or pass
When after the starting signal rule 18 applies between two boats and the right-of-way boat is changing course to round or pass a mark, rule 16 does not apply between her and the other boat.

And we can read what an expert has to say about rule 18.2(d)

(In the picture on David Dellenbaugh’s web page the boats are both on port jibe and will round the leeward mark to port. At the 4 boat length zone, Boat A is clear ahead and to leeward of Boat B.)

Here is what David Dellenbaugh says:
“Shutting the doorâ€

[Rick West]

Okay, the water got muddy again.

The simplton is out of here.

...94

[Chuck Luscomb]

OK,

I think I got the answer to my question.

The rules that govern "not overlapped at the 4 boat length zone" <u>switch off </u> once the clear ahead boats transom clears the mark.

What this means in practical terms is that if someone were to make a normal rounding, the clear astern boat would have no rights to "go in there". If the clear ahead boat makes a wide entry and a tight exit, more commonly referred to as a "seamen like rounding", the clear astern boat would also not have rights to go inside either.

In both of these cases, the transom of the clear ahead boat did not pass the mark until they exited the mark on their proper course. In both types of roundings, the clear ahead boat has full rights to "making claim" to any room that exists between their boat and the mark.

Here is were it gets interesting. If the clear ahead boat simply sails past the mark (which we have all done) and as a result, boats clear behind go in there, the boat clear ahead has exited the mark and has lost her rights to the inside. Whether she can or cannot defend the inside is irrelevant and cannot make any claims to it simply because she "exited" the mark when their transom cleared it.

What all this means is, you maintain your rights to claim the inside if you do not "exit" the mark and switch off the rule that protects your right.

Correct?

Chuck
#84

[Doug Wotring]

how about this. Clear ahead boat enters the 4 boat cirlce on the tangent to the circle while a Clear astern boats enters on the Centerline or near centerline of the circle.

Astern boat is carrying more speed and gets in and rounds the mark.....exiting the mark before the Formerly clear ahead boat enters the mark.

By all rights as stated above the First Clear ahead boat can protest? this is an example of room given can be taken.

It all comes down to if you have to alter course IMHO.....what do the rules say?

[Chuck Luscomb]

Doug,

In your example, the clear ahead boat maintains her right to the inside because she was clear ahead at the zone and her transom did not "pass" the mark. She has full rights to the inside and can make a verbal claim to it.

On the other hand, if the clear ahead boat hits the zone where you say, but she continues on her course without turning toward the mark, she has exited the mark and no longer has rights to the inside.

The tricky part is because of what has been stated above, the clear ahead boat does not have to be able to defend the inside to make claim to it. The key is whether they have "exited" the mark.

Chuck
#84

[Doug Wotring]

boy if that won't be an exersize in perseption and perspective.

one of those rules that works on real boats but not toy boats.

have an examples of this from any of the rules sites.

only ones I have seen with similar examples show either a collision or a course alteration........none where room is given and taken

[Chuck Luscomb]

Complicated to be sure.

Chuck
#84

[tag1945]

Try this one Doug:

http://game.finckh.net/regeln/cases/case63.htm


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Doug Wotring</i>
[

have an examples of this from any of the rules sites.

only ones I have seen with similar examples show either a collision or a course alteration........none where room is given and taken
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">