Proper course

[Frandito]

Two boats are sailing on port tack on a free leg with no overlap and 20 boats length from the mark that they will turn to port.
L (leeward)then overlaps W (windward) from clear behind.

What then becomes L's proper course? Can she take W above the mark? How far? Or is L limited to sailing to the matk.

a victim of soicumstance!

frandito

[tag1945]

Proper course: A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

Once the right-a-way boat (Leeward boat) obtained an overlap to leeward, rule 11 applies. Windward boat must stay clear.

Because the leeward boat obtained an overlap within 2 boat lengths of the windward boat, rule 17.1 also applies. Rule 17.1 restricts the leeward boat to not sail above her proper course. If the leeward boat's proper course requires her to luff to round the mark, then she can luff only enough to successfully round the mark, that would be her proper course she would sail in the absents of the Windward boat. "Windward boat must always stay clear"

[Rick West]

Tom's statement with the rule is correct. However, Fran, I like to make situations on the water simple. Here is how I think of it:

L obtains an overlap with W from being clear astern. When that overlap is established (L is no longer clear astern) L will not attack W to the mark or through the rounding. That is the simplicity of it.

Now the rub comes that some think that W can dictate the sailing of proper course in W's perspective. She cannot. W must recognize the difference between sailing to the mark and agressive moves by L.

L still has the right to steer the boat in a seamanship manner. In this case made by Fran the boats are on a port tack to a mark rounding to port. That is a severe turn. I would demand room for a seamanship rounding.

Conversation between skippers have become more than they should. L should know she cannot be agressive and sail to the mark in a seamanship manner. W should know that she must keep clear, understand what is agressive sailing and not bicker about proper course when both boats are running at full speed. The latter is the rub I hear most.

Finally, Fran, your question again...when L establishes the overlap it is time for all to behave.

...94

[Frandito]

Soooo....can L go above the course to the mark or is she restricted to go straight to the mark

frandito

[Winston]

Yes. No.

[Capt. Flak]

Fran, the thing you have to remember is that when L established her overlap from clear astern and within two boat lengths, she is limited to NOT sail above HER proper course. W must still keep clear of her.

L's proper course is subjective. If there is more wind on one side of the course, she may want to go that way, etc. The question is, would L have sailed that course if W was not there. If the answer is no, then W should keep clear and then protest L. OR at least warn L that she needs to sail her proper course. It will be up to L to prove that she was sailing her proper course. So long as W keeps clear, she cannot be penalized. If L cannot convince the committee that she was sailing her proper course, then W stands to win her protest and L could face a DSQ.

The problem is it is a hard one win. The best thing to do is stay clear and hope that you still have an overlap when you reach the four-boat circle.

Joe Walter #24

[Frandito]

It just doesn't seem reasonable that L could go as high as she wants above the mark with no reason other that to attack. I though that was what the rule was to prevent...that is, taking a windward boat up when passing on the leeward side.
Otherwise , what was the rule put in the book for?

frandito

[tag1945]

Frandito

Please understand that no one has suggested that the leeward boat can go as high as she wants above the mark!

What you must look at is all the present conditions at the time this event took place. A wind shift might cause the proper course for the Leeward boat to also shift to round the mark. Other boats in the area might cause the leeward boat to change course to avoid them. Remember it was rule 11 that gave the rights to the leeward boat. Rule 17.1 only limits those rights because of how the overlap was obtained. If you think that the change of course of the leeward boat was for tactical reasons only, then "STAY CLEAR" and protest him. Otherwise stay clear and except that the leeward boat did a good job in out sailing you!

[bigfoot55]

Gee, I love 17.1. Have we been here before?

[Capt. Flak]

http://www.ussailing.org/member/library ... 041201.htm

the middle illustration helps a lot.

Joe Walter #24

[Frandito]

Thanks Joe.....that is a good article

i was trying to think, but nothing happened

frandito

[MichaelJ2K]

Ok, I was in a similar situation after coming around the leeward mark. Approximately six boat lengths from the mark, both boats were powered up at speed on a starboard tack. I was windward boat and became overlapped from clear behind on the leeward boat, both sailing "a proper course" to the next mark (rule 11). Although there was an overlap, I felt that I was keeping clear and that L luffed purely for tactical reasons. Now I understand that L can luff up into the wind (which she did)and I remained clear. However, L chose to return to the course (starboard tack) she was previously sailing to get to the mark. There was no hail that a luff was about to occur (rule 16.1). So from what I am reading here, would I be able to protest L for not sailing a proper course (rule 17.1)? There was no wind shift at the time of the luff.

Mike Denest
EC12 #899

[Capt. Flak]

Mike, your situation has nothing to do with proper course. You were the overtaking boat to windward. the leeward boat has every right to defend his position and take you head to wind if need be. His only limitation is rule 16 which says he must give you room and opportunity to keep clear. In other words, he can't turn so hard and fast that you were unable to react fast enough to keep clear.

If he turned up really fast and you could not keep clear, then you could protest him. But from your post, you did keep clear, so he did not break rule 16.

When you try to pass to windward, be prepared to get taken up.

Joe Walter #24

[Chuck Luscomb]

Mike, Also, do not expect a hail from the leeward boat. It is not required in rule 16.1. You are expected to keep clear unless he makes an abrupt move that does not give you room and opportunity to keep clear.

As much as I like the idea that the leeward boat might hail their intentions to come up to defend, it is not required. There are in fact very few instances in sailing were hails are required as part of the rule.

Chuck
#84

[MichaelJ2K]

Thanks, that's what I thought your responses might be. Just curious, what kind of situation would 17.1 come into effect?

Mike Denest
EC12 #899