Do Rules Matter in Florida?

[Winston]

"EQUAL OPPORTUNITY As the national authority for the sport of sailing in the United States of America, the United States Sailing Association is committed to providing an equal opportunity to participate in the sport of sailing." Source, the 2005-2008 U.S. Sailing Prescriptions to the ISAF appendix to the Racing Rules of Sailing.

The AMYA and all of our class organizations and sanctioned clubs are bound by this statement. We are even now voting on whether to change the Constitution and By-Laws of the AMYA to include what has been called a "Diversity Statement", which in different words promises that all are welcome and will be allowed an equal opportunity to play our game.

In the EC-12 class, our game is racing in regattas. That is what we do. In all areas of the country (other than Florida) all may enter a regatta, all compete for first place and the best skipper wins.

In Florida it is different. We have something unique called the "Two Fleet Scoring System" (TFSS). If you are new to our class you may "enter" a regatta, but you will not have a chance to come in first place and collect first place points toward the "Florida Cup".
No, you will be placed in the "slow" fleet which does not award as many points for victory as first place in the "fast" fleet. Fast fleet guys have a head start over slow fleet guys toward the "Florida Cup". This system was voted in by the members attending the annual meeting of the Florida EC-12 Association.

That this is a denial of equal opportunity is obvious. That the TFSS is an illegal system because it discourages participation is obvious. That it has been agressively "defended" by our leaders is...unfortunate.

This past week I received 2 particular e-mails from the same person. One recommended that I vote for the "Diversity Statement" amendments and the other was a survey on the TFSS. What juxtaposition.

This is my response. The TFSS was and is fundamentally wrong. It breaks the rules. Don't tell us "it is a work in progress" anymore. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Drop it NOW. Use the EORS like everyone else, beginning in Orlando next week.

For those of you who may not know me or know anything about this, I am the "fleet captain" of the EC-12 class in the Naples Model Yacht Club. I have attended 5 regattas between FL and PA during 2007. I have not raced under the TFSS in the 2 years of its existence. My participation has been discouraged by the imposition of this unfair system. I have been called "an activist with no support" (because of my position on this issue) by one of the supporters of the TFSS. I am communicating in this way because this issue is of importance to all members and potential members of this class, if not the whole AMYA. Please feel free to comment or question. My flameproof suit is on.

Do Rules Matter in Florida? What do you think?

Winston Mathews

[Doug Wotring]

Having not sailed in Fl other than the 2005 nationals and not under the TFSS at all my opinions probably count for little.

I agree and though at the time prior to the TFSS that it was BOGUS!

There are many skippers who may be new to sailing RC or the class in general. Many of these skippers are very good. Ex. Alan Perkins at the White Rose Last weekend. 2nd ec12 regatta with a boat completed just prior to the Choptank (Cambridge) Regatta.....and he trophied.

I have always heard that FL can be some what of a good old boys club and the TFSS seems to be a good example. One should not be penalized for being new or even not so competitive or consistant. Even a skipper who consistantly finsihes in the bottom of a fleet can have a win or top end finish in a race. Not allowing hiim this oportunity is skewing the scores in Fl I am sure.

Outside of the possibility of SAILING alot by riding the bubble in a PR system (perhaps an issue for some of our more mature skippers)why not just use PR.....then everyone gets a fair shake, if your good you end up in A fleet, you suck you are in B or god forsake C

I would think that the FLorida owners Assoc would want to let thier skippers exeprience what they will elswhere in the class and at nationals.

Totaly on your side as an OUTSIDER Winston

Florida Cup (Champions Regatta Qualification) should be EORS/PR.

If the FL Owners Assoc wants to keep TFSS run a seperate series....we all know you have more than enough boats to do it.

Disclaimer: Statements made above are soley my personal opinion and based on what I recall about the TFSS when it was being discussed before

[bigfoot55]

As I recall, the vote by the 30+ attending members of the Florida Association last year at the Villages meeting had only one vote against the two fleet system (Winston) and one abstention(me). In other words, the Florida 12 membership was nearly unanimous in the choice. It was not a good ole boy imposition.

I personaly would be happy to see revision or changes to the system, more movement between fleets or a way to opt for one or the other. But half the skippers at the meeting were in B fleet and they all voted for it but one.
I think there should be more P/R movement between regattas. Maybe it really isn't a problem to many at all. Maybe the vote expressed the will of the membership. Maybe proposed changes can be voted on again this year. Why not propose something constructive? There is time. I'll vote for a change.

Tom Phillips
265

[Doug Wotring]

refresh my memory:

What gets you out of the B Fleet?

If I were to come to FL what Fleet would I be put in?

[RMDJBD]

Winston

I agree with you on using the P/R system over the A/B system, but the local sailing authority can and did change the system. Let me define the last part of the sentence. The USSA allows for the deviation of their rules by local sailing associations as long as it is in the Notice of Race.

Now that we are two years down the road with the A/B system I think they could change back because the system was set-up because of the lack of participation. Now we do not have a lack but now have to limit the number of registration, St.Pete and Naples had waiting list.

When the A/B fleets were set up to keep the equal opportunity part going, the rules said, if you finish first in B fleet you would move to A fleet the next race and to stay in A fleet you would have to place high so when they average your minimun 3 races your average would have to be better than the last person in A fleet to stay in A fleet. Now,nowhere in the rules when they were set up that if the first place in B fleet did not register or want to go to A fleet the next race that the governing body would go to the second place and let he or she (equal opportunity) move into A fleet.

The second part of the problem is the way the averages to place you in either A or B fleet. The races that should count for the averages should be only taken from Florida races not from, well the new participant only has one race in Florida but is doing good in the Dixie series, lets average some races from there and put him in A fleet.

Now lets get down to my bone of contention, the scoring in the Florida Cup standings. Lets stuff this under the "Equal Opportunity" part of the rules.

I have no problem giving "Bonus Points" for participation, that is equal for everybody. I have no problem giving an extra point for first place, under the USSA scoring system, most big boat regatas use 3/4 point for first, low point scoring,(a bonus),we use this system in our Nat's also. Where I have the problem is all the Bonus points given out for 2,3,4, and 5th place, are these finishers special, I thought we are suppose to be "equal", because they get the points every regatta and if they do good they also get a trophy at the end of the series too.

With all these Bonus point given out a skipper after 2 or 3 races getting the standard points system will have a hard time, if not impossible, to move into Trophy part of the system.

This is all now, I have to go back to work, a new hull is ready to come out of the mold so I can start another tomorrow.

Winston if the vote comes around again I will vote for P/R, even after the "Gone With the Wind" regatta after I slipped on that Geogia clay, I would of loved to race the A/B fleet so I could sit down, no I got caught on the bubble.














Bob Dudinsky
R.M.D.MARINE

[Chuck Luscomb]

This topic is quite a mind bender. What was the problem in FL in the first place that would have nearly all in the FL Assoc vote in favor of the A/B system in the first place?

Why would you cripple anyones chances of doing his or her best? The entire purpose of the EORS is that if offers all skippers an equal oportunity to win if they have the skill to do so. If your concern is that you do not want to deal with less skilled sailors on the same starting line, then the EORS does this also. Each skipper finds their zone.

This A/B system is also not limited to the EC12 Class in FL. I understand it is used in a number of other classes down there as well.

Why?

Chuck
#1684

[jack wubbe]

Doug
I resent your crack about sailors in Florida being a "good old boys club.

Let me point out a few things you might not be aware of. Florida has more registered EC-12'S than any other state and is still growing, the Florida EC-12 Assoc. is the largest EC-12 group in the states and is still growing, Florida EC-12 assoc. clubs hold six 2 day regattas thru out the year with 30+ boats at every regatta, and last but not least, a large number of Florida sailors travel to many sailing venues out of state.

So if you get a chance come on down and let some old boys show you a good time

Jack Wubbe
US-23

[kermwood]

When this topic came up before l kept a low profile even though l thought that the whole idea was wrong.
There is a great feeling of anticiption when loading up the boot(trunk) of the car going to a meeting of what the day will bring.
if you do well in the heats who can say how the day may end,if a couple of the "top" skippers are off color or heaven forbid have a tec breakdown you may be up the fleet.
But the thought of going to a meeting and knowing that no matter how well you sail you are only going to finish in the B fleet ( you can try calling silver/bronze but its still the B fleet) l find very off putting.and top of the B fleet in a 2 X ten boat fleet is still 11th no matter how you call it.
l just like to think l have a chance of finshing top of the fleet at every meeting and not being stopped from doing so by the rules.
Just my thinkings
Woody

[Winston]

Allow me to refocus and summarize the comments thus far. The details of the TFSS, the motive(s) for its adoption and the number of votes cast are not the issue of this thread.

The issue is "May AMYA sanctioned model yacht clubs deny anyone the equal right to participate in EC-12 posted regattas as a result of a vote at the annual meeting of the Florida EC-12 Association?"

There are those who have said "YES" to this. Everyone who was at the 2006 annual meeting (except the undersigned and one abstainer) said "Yes, nevermind that you have paid to join the AMYA, the Naples Model Yacht Club, to buy your EC-12 and have it registered and have paid to be a member of the Florida EC-12 Association, we are under no obligation to allow you the equal right to participate in an open regatta."

Does anyone really believe that? Can we legally change rules regarding whether members in good standing can participate? I can't believe we are 2 years deep in this. What am I missing Floriduh?

Thanks for comments.

Winston Mathews

[Capt. Flak]

Winston,

First off, the Two-Fleet system used by the Florida EC-12 Association is not illegal nor does it discourage participation as is evidenced by the 40-50 percent increase in entries to our regattas over the last year. It is not illegal because the governing body may determine the criteria for entry and they may also determine the scoring system to be used RRS 89.3(a).

The TFSS as you like to call it was created by a Bill Gale who has many years of running regattas and sailing model boats under his belt. It was created in response to a growing number of skippers who were DISCOURAGED to participate in the P&R. These skippers were spending just as much money and just as much time as the "Fast" skippers were, but were not having as much fun in the B-fleet. Some would sail the whole weekend only to reach the A-fleet for a moment and others not see it at all.

We could have easily gone ahead with the P&R for all our regattas and simply lose a good number of skippers. Our attendance would have dropped to a level that would not require the use of the P&R because everyone could sail in one fleet. Instead we presented an idea to our members and they voted overwhelmingly for it. First they voted electronically. 76 of our 80 members voted with 75 voting yes and only one voting no. That vote was challenged and so we voted again at the Annual Meeting where there were 32 members present. 30 voted for, one vote against and one abstained.

The point is that the membership of this organization are in favor of it and they have proven it by the fact that the host clubs can no longer handle the large number of boats entering the regattas.

In all sports there are starting places and in all sports there are levels that must be reached before you can compete. Children start out in little league and work their way up to the major league over many years of training, skills building, and maturing. And even then they have to demonstrate a minimum level of skill to even be considered by the league. In auto racing you start in go-carts and work your way up to NASCAR, and you have to prove yourself along the way. In golf you have to make the cut to continue to play and on and on.

Sailing is no different. You cannot just trailer your boat to the Olympics and say let me compete. You cannot buy a ticket to Valencia and demand to be on the team of an AC boat. And you cannot get to the Nationals in most big boat classes without first competing at the local level.

Our regattas are open to all owners of a registered EC-12. We do not discriminate for any reason. But we do let you know in the NOR that we sail using the TFSS and if you don't want to sail with us, we won't force you to.

When one of our regattas is sanctioned by the Class and AMYA to be a Regional or National regatta, we of course use the P&R. The rest of our regattas are not sanctioned by AMYA. We can sail them anyway we choose. Our points system for the Florida Championship is also not sanctioned by AMYA and we do not ask them for approval. The Champions Regatta held each year in Charleston is also NOT sanctioned by AMYA. These are all simply events run by volunteers with mutually agreed upon rules and scoring systems.

The Majority membership of the Florida EC-12 Association mutually agreed to use the TFSS at our regattas. If you want to change it, then make a motion at the Annual Meeting and we will vote on it.

If you or anyone else out there does not want to sail at Florida EC-12 Association regattas because of the way the overwhelming majority of its members want to sail, I really don't care. You are missing out on some very competitive racing and wonderfully enjoyable weekends with a great bunch of people.

And if you want to insult me and the membership with comments like Good ole boys and FloriDUH, you know what you can do with yourself.

Joe Walter #24

[Doug Wotring]

JOe, being an outsider take this for what it's worth...an outsider's comment.

how do you figure the TFSS has increased your numbers?

If prospective or new skippers were not sailing because they never or did not often reach the A fleet.....now they are sure they will not, at least not in the first regatta they sail in.

I am sure as adults these skippers are not swayed by the 15.00 peice of wood which likely will never get hung on a wall in thier house ( note I did not include shop wall).

was the TFSS a "excuse" to not be burdened with inexperienced or crappy sailers? That would be a benefit in many scenerios but I do not agree with it. and in all actuallity, these "poor" skippers would likey be the ones who stay in the B fleet and rarely reach A fleet anyway.

What was the reasoning behind the TFSS?

as for your examples of Olympics/ AC, not really relevant IMHO.

Olympic trials are open to anyone.....and you are culled out by your performance.

Again, can you explain why your numbers have increased at regattas due to the TFSS over P/R......or did it just happen to coincide with class growth

I would think that the best move would to provide stanardization

[Winston]

To repeat:

The issue is "May AMYA sanctioned model yacht clubs deny anyone the equal right to participate in EC-12 posted regattas as a result of a vote at the annual meeting of the Florida EC-12 Association?"

Let the record show that Joe Walter says "YES".

Winston Mathews

[Doug Wotring]

way I read things.....yes the clubs can do as they please however are these regattas considerd AMYA sanctioned?

Are the listed on the AMYA site?
Are Chevrons issued?

how does this affect Champions regatta as per is posted rules?

.."All EC-12 Captains are eligible to attend any regattas in the consortium, however the Florida EC-12 Association does require that you belong to the Florida EC-12 Association to be scored in their championship."

[Doug Wotring]

From the AMYA "Guidelines"

The Matrix System

The earliest solution was the matrix system. The simplest variation on this system might be to <font color="red">try to divide the fleet into groups of equal ability, and then have each group sail a series of races</font id="red">. One would then rank every boat by total score. <font color="red">This would not be a very fair system</font id="red">. <font color="red">Inevitably there would be an #65533;easy group and a #65533;hard group</font id="red">. To remedy this, a variety of plans evolved that dictated the races in which each boat was to sail. For example, you might be told to race the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 7th 11th and 12th race. Each skipper would have a different plan.

Setting the matrix up requires a modest amount of work by the race committee, and significant problems arise if some boats entered do not actually race. It has been said that there always seemed to be a #65533;sweet spot in the matrix, as well as a #65533;sour spot. Furthermore, the matrix does not deal well with boats that withdraw from the event. Several withdrawals can greatly unbalance the level of skill in the separate races. In the end, it is not a particularly fair a system. It served its purpose at the time, but in my opinion, it is not well suited for most AMYA Championship events and should not be used, unless the race committee does not have sufficient manpower. There are better solutions for race committees (and skippers) willing to learn how do use newer options. <font color="red">It's easy to run a matrix in a casual fashion, but quite hard to adjust it to maintain fairness as an event unfolds.</font id="red">

[Doug Wotring]

again: Just an outsiders view point.

when P/R is reinstated I'll come play in Florida.
[:I]