Do Rules Matter in Florida?

[Capt. Flak]

The problem here is that Winston thinks that this hobby is purely about competitive racing. It is not. It is about enjoying your weekend with your friends in an activity that is fun, relaxing, challenging, exciting, rewarding, and on and on. It is not just about having a chance to race against the best. And there are a great number of skippers in this organization that would rather sail with like skilled skippers and have an EQUAL opportunity to win rather than be relegated to the back of the fleet for a day and a half.

We have a whole new group of skippers who are now winning trophies. Some for the first time in many years in the sport. They are going away happy from the event when before they were going away angry, sad, or what have you. This system was created to give an EQUAL opportunity for everyone to enjoy there weekend.

The system is designed to allow skippers to move up as they improve. Yes it is a work in progress as we are still looking at how we can insure that there is enough movement between the fleets. Last year we changed it so that the winner of the B-fleet gets an automatic trip to the A-fleet in the next regatta.

To answer the question of how I know the growth in turnouts is because of this system and not just more boats in the club, it is because I know who all of these guys. I know who was sailing before and when and why they stopped sailing and I know when they came back to sail with us again. I also have had several skippers come up to me and tell me that they do not like the P&R and they were going to stop sailing with us until we created this system. I have had folks come up to me and tell me how much more they enjoy sailing now, even more than when they used to sail the matrix.

Yes we have many new skippers in our group now, but we also have many old faces who are still with us and who have come back out to sail because of the way we are doing things.

If you come down here to sail with us, you will be placed in the fleet based on your record in your own group such as the Dixie Cup. Which fleet you get into is dependent on the number of entrants and the makeup of their average scores. If you are in the middle of the range and a higher number of "fast" skippers enter, you may find yourself in B-fleet. If a higher number of "slower" skippers enter, you may be up in A.

To those who think this system was created so that me and my "good old boy" buddies can race each other without having to deal with slower traffic, you can kiss my ass. You don't know me and you don't know the first thing about what this is all about.

Winston, if you think that I am denying folks the opportunity to PARTICIPATE, then you can just continue to sail up north in their 15 boat regattas. We are having a pretty good time down here in our 30+ boat regattas. If that is your definition of denying opportunity, then I do say "YES."

Now if you will excuse me, I am tired of laboring over your irrelevant rantings on this Labor Day.

Joe Walter #24

[Doug Wotring]

Joe,

I understand the theory and reasoning of your guys choice to go to the TFSS.......

I am also suprised that you had skippers who would have stopped sailing because they end up at the back of the fleet. In all actuallity for anyone with any logical and cognitive ability they are still in the back.....although they now have the ability to win wood for being in the middle of the fleet. We are all adults here and I don't think we need the sensativity of such a practice. I am guessing all your skippers are old enough that they did not grow up in little league systems where everyone gets a trohpy even for last place.

yes you do have 30 plus boat regattas...and very well you should have with a Florida fleet that is HUGE....but what is that a representative 10% of registered boats.

I attend have attended just about every Colonial Cup event for the past few years as well as the last three nationals......I can fairly well predict where I will finish in the fleet by looking at the entry list, Generally mid fleet. Save some drastic event, ( somebody's bad Luck) or me having a 5 star day I would not expect to win a throhpy.....but I do from time to time win a heat or come in in the top few boats in a heat.

These heat finishes (beating or duking it out with DB, Jarl Wathne, DT, or the like) are far more satisfying than striving for a mid fleet kudo chuck of pressed board with a brass plate.

I do enjoy sailing and the socal aspect but also the competition and challenge of sailing with top notch skippers with the chance of doing well against them every time I see them and I think you will find that anyone who is campaigning feels the same.....even the skipper who is regularly at the bottom of the fleet.

Why not, run then as PR regattas and just give trophies for mid fleet finishes?

does the guy who finishes last in the A fleet get bent and go crying home saying he is going to stop sailing because he didn't get a trophy?

An example from the Northlands: Alan Perkins who is new to the class this year and launched his boat shortly before the Cambridge Regatta.....had a not so spectacular finish in that regatta.....that would have locked him into the B fleet in your system for the White Rose ( next Regatta).....however with the equitable system of PR he was able to trophy at the White Rose. He had an equal opportunity to win, not just to sail

[nquinn]

Doug,

If your comment on Joe's comment was even close to how, or why, 'we' voted the way we did I could ignore it, but it is not.

"... I think you will find that anyone who is campaigning feels the same.....even the skipper who is regularly at the bottom of the fleet."

Not true - or over 25 of us at that first meeting, where Joe suggested the A/B concept, we would NOT have voted the way we did.

These are not keel boats like my Soling or Victoria. The skill set is much different and regattas require a good boat, like Bob Dudinsky builds, and much more practice time than some of us have available. Newbies with the cujones to sign/show up at regattas should be allowed the opportunity to be successful, that is all we voted for. I thank the guys for that.

I believe Winston's very much in the minority in the Florida EC12 Association. If it does not work out we'll change it back, but that is OUR choice.

Thanks,

Nick

[Doug Wotring]

Nick,

you confirm exactly what I am saying

"Newbies with the cujones to sign/show up at regattas should be allowed the opportunity to be successful"

Yes I agree but they should be given the opportunity to compete on a level playing field too.

your statement as well as that of others support the way I see it.

segrigation for the sake of awarding mid fleet skippers with chunks of wood.

No matter how you stack it. a Top B fleet finish is still a 16th or so Despite it being listed as two seperate fleets( basically two consecutively run regattas) or maybe that is just my Edumacation talking


What was that you guys had down there Jim Crow Laws....

LOL

Your playground...your rules...do as you like.

[Doug Wotring]

if you look at my 2005 post on the topic of the TFSS.......I was for it then.

but time has shown that it is possible for someone to have a 5 star day and really kick ass.

These people are penalized under your current system by not being able to compete with thier peers......who is all EC12 skippers

[nquinn]

Doug,

Thanks for your support! When I have my 5-Star day in 'B' fleet I'll have the chance to mature my skills against better sailors in the next regatta.

Nick[:)]

[kahle67]

Hey guys! For those who might be following this thread, I thought I would direct you to the Sailing Anarchy forums page where Winston has solicited suggestions from those outside of the RC world.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/in ... opic=59765

So far one poster has offered some helpful insight to Winston's question. User name Tekebird, one of our own who has been critical of the Florida sailing format on this thread, has offered his thoughts as well about those who sail in the B fleet down in Florida.

Check it out.

Reichard Kahle (gybe turkey)

[Tony Bollers]

I hope I do not offend those who voted for the current system that has been adopted by the Florida EC12 Association. Although they wanted to do this, I do not think they thought through the adverse consoquences it brings. In my opinion, it fosters "elitism" and thus "segregation" comes into play. You are either labled "Superior" or an "Inferior" Sailor. The better option would have been the P/R System, even though you will wind up sailing on the bubble. One can always decide to take your lumps/points and sit out a heat if one is tired and stay in the B fleet! Remember, Sailing should be fun! Why should it matter if the fleet is as small as 15 boats or as large as 40, the idea is to experience sailing in what is sailed under the Regional/National Rules/Notice of this type of racing. Keep fostering the Corinthian Spirit that sailing is meant to be! My 2 cents!

[bogordoug]

And for a thrill of victory, there is nothing better that sailing from last place in the B fleet of a P/R regatta and scoring first in the next round. I've done it twice and it is a heart pounding thrill. (If I do it again I will take my wife's advice and actively recruit a cardiologist to begins sailing with us.)

The feeling must be somewhat like what the ASU Mountineers felt after being allowed to play with the big boys and winning. It makes for competitive sailing where every place counts in every heat.

Doug Hale

[Doug Wotring]

Now Reichard, I was just following the format of Sailing Anarchy.

So I stated it harshly...as thats how they like it there most of the time.

IN PR I often find myself in B so I am being critical of myself too.........

[Chuck Luscomb]

Well,

Having hosted a few regattas in the North East, I was surprised to learn that some sailors did not compete BECAUSE we used PR and not a split fleet like they do in FL. Our club used to use a split fleet and all the sailors in B were happy to be there and sail with people of equal skill. When our club changed the format to PR, we lost nearly all the B fleeters because they felt they did not stand a chance to beat the better sailors and had to accept their finishes in the bottom B with no possible chance at a trophy. Did it surprise me? Yes, because I am not wired that way. Do I disagree with it? No. Not all sailors are there to WIN the regatta.

I agree with Joe Walter in that if the FL association voted FOR this format to allow sailors who may never go home with a trophy to compete with sailors of like skill then it works for them. Great work Joe. You do what you gotta do.

Winston, if you are a FL sailor and a member of the FL EC12 Association, you have voting rights just like everyone else. You also have other options. You can chose to only sail in AMYA sanctioned events, travel out of FL to other EC12 events that don't use this format or start your own EC12 club and don't use this format.

Good luck!

Chuck Luscomb
#1684

[Rick West]

I think the comments have been to the point of this posting. There are points of view all around on this but remember this is a forum of things about the EC12 and the RRS rules section is not a forum of our racing legalities within the class. The section is about the RRS.

I know there have been other views on the process and management of the Florida Association in this regard but this forum is not now the media of those discussions.

What the Florida EC12 Association wishes to do in their operations is that of their business. Chuck Buzek formed it to be apart from the class and for Florida and he has reminded me often to take the Class to an Owners Association. I will not do that by even now the Vice President. I support AMYA and not Class Owner Associations.

I request all involved with this issue to take it to another media, as it does not have a place here. This will be appreciated by class administration and the members at large.


...94

[PegLeg]

Hi Guys

It sorta – kinda looks like the Florida 2 fleet system discussion has kicked up a whole lot of dust, dirt and heavy, not nice feelings.

Perhaps it is time to kick back and dispassionately view the facts and see if there is some logical way to resolve the differences while still achieving the objectives of those involved.

But first, I would like to comment on some of Mr. Walter’s comments in earlier postings on this subjectâ€

[Capt. Flak]

It is amazing what you can do with your time when you don't have friends. Pete, you must surely be the loneliest man on Earth. How sad.

Even sadder still is that after spending a wonderful day with my 4-year old at a birthday party at Build-A-Bear Workshop and then taking a restful Sunday afternoon nap, I had to wake up and read this dribble.

For the record everyone, Pete hates me and Rick West. So he devotes all is lonely time to finding ways to jab at us. We have tried many times to ignore him, but we often get sucked into his little plans when we defend ourselves from the many ridiculous accusations he spews out. Like Reichard Kahle has said, "Don't feed the troll!"

Also for the record, Pete, you are NOT a member of the Florida EC-12 Association, and you never will be again, so long as I am the Chairman. And yes I do have the authority to exclude people from the Association. I am sure you are looking that up right now while at the same time still reading this post. I also expect to see some formal protest by you to AMYA or USSailing soon. After all, that is what you are so good at..."crying to Momma!"

You have no business with this Association, nor do you have any voting rights. You may blow all the hot air that you like, but you still need to convince the 95 percent majority of our members who chose to use this system, that they are the ones who are wrong.

I have spent too much time explaining this system to people who don't sail here and I am not going to do it any more. The system is posted on our Web site and I will gladly answer questions about it to folks with genuine interest in sailing.

Pete I sincerely hope you get a life. Just please get it a long way away from us.

Joe Walter #24

[greerdr]

REPEAT: DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS !!

R.C.Greer