"Room at the Mark!!!"

[Capt. Flak]

First, the Starboard tack boat is fetching the mark.
Second, the Port tack boat reaches the four boat circle at the same time as S, so that tells me they are on a collision course.

Port MUST keep clear of Starboard. There is no way he will be able to tack under Starboard and still be on the layline. So he will surely need to pinch up hard to make the mark. This is where he will be yelling for room at the mark. And this is where RRS 18.3 says he cannot make Starboard sail above close hauled. So the minute he luffs up to make the mark, he will also make Starboard luff up to avoid him and thus break the rule.

In oder for Port to get away with this, he would have needed to be far enough ahead of Starboard to complete his tack and get around the mark without making Starboard luff.

From the sound of the original post, Port was in a bad place. He should have ducked Starboard or tacked away and turn back around for a another try.

This is probably the biggest cause of anger on the race course. If you are coming into a crowded mark rounding on Port, you better start looking for transoms or tack out there. What ever the reason is that put you in that bad spot coming into the mark -- wind shift, bad choice, stuck to leeward of the fleet -- it is not fair to the guys on Starboard for you to just crash your way in. Do the right thing.

Joe Walter #24

[kahle67]

Yachtie wrote:

"Even if the Stbd tack boat is fetching the mark he is entitled to sail his "proper course" which is towards and around the mark and only needs to change course to avoid a collision if needed."

Not always true! If a boat tacks in front or to leeward of you in the four length zone and you have to alter course to avoid hitting him, as long as you don't have to sail above close hauled he has not fouled you.

Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[kahle67]

Joe,

In a perfect world, we would always approach the weather mark on a close hauled point of sail. In many cases we end up reaching in or overlaying. When the latter happens, rule 18.3 allows for a boat to take advantage of the overlaid yacht instead of having to sail the extra distance behind them.

If the starboard boat(s) are on the wind at the layline with nothing in the bank, you are right. There is no way to pull this off without causing the right of way boat to sail above close hauled. This would be an obvious foul and yes there would be yelling.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from doing the right thing and ducking. I am just trying to explain rule 18.3 which pertains to the situation in the original post. Skip asked if someone could tack inside the four length zone and ask for room. The answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no.



Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[Les Ervin]

Kahle67,

Have you ever considered the idea that it is you who don't understand the question asked by skip241 and it is you who needs a copy and an understanding of the rules? Right now skip241 believes he needs to give room to the boat on port tack. Myself and others disagree.

By the way adding !!!!!!! and CAPITALIZING on a forum means you are shouting. Is that what you want to convey?

Les

[kahle67]

No, I never considered it and no I am not yelling[:)]. It's just that you guys keep bringing up port vs. starboard when we are talking about two boats on starboard, one that happened to tack inside the zone.

Skip wrote:

" The port boat tacks and hails "leeward yacht, need room to make the mark"."


Ken, are you there?




Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[Capt. Flak]

Reichard, I am completely with you on this. I have no disagreement with what you are saying.

It is just that Skip's situation said starboard was on the layline. If both boats reach the four-boats circle at the same time, that sure would be a collision in the works. Port tack must first keep clear of Starboard, which Skip indicates he did by tacking to leeward. But that would put him below the layline and so when he tries to pinch up to make the mark asking for room as he did, he will be pushing starboard (now Windward) above close hauled. Thereby breaking the rule.

Yes there are times when you can come in on Port and tack inside the zone and not foul anyone. No argument there. They just need to know that they are putting themselves in jeopardy if there is a starboard tacker in the area.

My point is when in doubt, dip the other guys transom.

And for all you guys out there who don't know Reichard, he never yells and he is one of the most knowledgeable and courteous skippers you will ever meet.

Joe Walter #24

[kahle67]

Thanks,Joe. I was not trying to get into a pissing match with anyone, just thought I would show that there are circumstances where a boat can tack in the zone and not foul anyone. I said from the begining that the boat entering the circle on starboard must be above the layline and cracked off for another boat to pull this off. You know those approaches when you all of a sudden get a huge lift before the weather mark.

If Skip had to luff above close hauled, I am sure he would have backed up his case by stating so in another post. Since he did not, I have to assume he was slightly overlaying.

And I agree that anyone who tries this with a parade of starboard tack boats coming is foolish and is looking for a beating.

It really is hard to discuss rule situations by just typing. There is a reason that you have to prepare your case and draw it out on paper in a protest room.


Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[bigfoot55]

R- Not sure from Skips post if that is correct. He indicates that both entered the 4 boat circle at approx the same time. I would think it unlikely that Port could do that, make the tack without interfearing with Starboard if it was as I wisualize it. Maybe Skip can clarify the circumstances since we can't "go to the video tape" which is probably the only way it could be decided.

Skip- Question, did port tack and establish his position on Starboard without causing Starboard to change course?

Tom Phillips

[Rick West]

If it is a point of rule you want to discuss (18.3) then most of this discussion presents points. However, I have to go back to MY basic rule; "I do not want to be dead right and if it needs to be discussed then possibly neither party is clear on the matter."My Dummy solution is to avoid it if you can...right or wrong."

There is too much of this issue at the windward mark because of the mindset that port approaching skippers think their boat will blow up if it goes past the mark on the wrong side or if it ducks another boat. So, they just go and do it...

A boat in the right has no recourse because the heat is over for him. Redress with damage if possible is a 30-minute hold and if he cannot start the next heat he will get a DNS with no redress.

My solution todate is don't go where this happens a lot. I am sensitive to this issue and I know Reichard is to. Both of us know the rule and it helps us not when taken out by a boat that did earn the position through proper tactics. We are not onboard the boat and should consider this when sailing with friends.

Like I said, debating the matter is good. Training on the matter is good. Dealing with the matter on the racecource in an event where it counts, sucks. The loser is the guy that deserved to sail on.

I am in Harrisburg PA tonight on the way to Stowe, tired and hate this subject (probably should not have posted). And I hate port/starboard contact where the guy on Starboard has to do a turn too when the trailing boat hits him when knocked onto port in the collision. Do get me started...Argh!

There are only two good places to be in serious competition; The Champions Regatta or A Fleet at the NCR. The rest of the time it is the 20% luck thing...or, wrong place at the right time.

...94

[Doug Wotring]

Here is the situation.

Two boats are racing to the windward mark. One boat is sailing down the layline on a starboard tack. The other boat is on a port tack approaching the mark. Both boats enter the four boat circle at aproximately the same time. The starboard boat hails "starboard". The port boat tacks and hails "leeward yacht, need room to make the mark".

Is the original boat on starboard required to give room?

Did the port boat that tacked to starboard at fault for tacking at the mark on below the starboard yacht?


<b>My layman understanding of the rules.....with the given info.....</b><b></b>

1. Starboard Boat 1 (S1) is on the layline...thus close hauled
2. Port boat tacks after Starboard hail from S1 and now becomes S2
3. At this point I don't see a way that S2 could make the mark without luffing......if indeed S1 was on the layline.

I understand the situation with S1 overlaying the mark.......and the benefit of making this move as S2 but....

S2 is not entitled to call for room......if S1 was overlaying the mark...the room is there to take and he should not have to ask for room.

I would think having to ask for the room in the situation Skip gave us would prove S2 is in the wrong

correct?

[kahle67]

Ok, I am going to take the dummy solution. The same questions keep coming up and I am done. I did not mean to get into the nitty gritty details of what the rules allow. You are right, Rick. We are not onboard the boat and I find myself fueling a fire that is already blazing at many events[}:)].

I do like the part about a skippers boat blowing up, though[:D]. I might have to quote that sometime.

Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[kahle67]

Keep it coming skipquinn. It was I that took this discussion a bit too far.

Good night.

Reichard Kahle
Charleston, SC

[skip241]

Hey guys I have the answer to my question. Thanks to all who have made their input.

And one last comment, avoid this situation! Don't sail with tunnel vision. Do what I have been taught while driving my car and motorcycle. Watch out for the other guy! Continuing on into a collision will most likely win you that small battle (incident) but may cost you the war (that heat or the regatta). It's just not worth it.

Thanks again everyone! Skip

[Doug Wotring]

key is as with any other moving vehicle is to plan at least 5 seconds ahead of where you are presently.

[John Ebell]

Hey guys I think the purpose of this Forum has been well served on this topic. From an observer's viewpoint one can easily see this is an item of some contention. It serves as a big flag to everyone to reinforce the concept of not forcing the rounding issues and get everyone around the mark clean. You never see the better sailors get themselves in situations like this. I know I will be more attentive to this next time on the course.

John Ebell
1659