leeward overtaking w/i two boat lenngrhs

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leeward overtaking w/i two boat lenngrhs

Postby bigfoot55 » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:41 am

This rule seems a little unclear, can you shed light?.
17 On the Same Tack; Proper Course
17.1 A boat that establishes a leeward overlap from clear astern within two of her hull lengths of a windward boat shall not sail above her proper course during that overlap while the boats are less than that distance apart, unless as a result she becomes clear astern. etc."

."- FROM THE EXPLANATION PROPER COURSE
"Under 17.1 (On the Same Tack; Proper Course), a proper course for L
may take account of any boat except a W she has overlapped to
leeward from clear astern

As I read it, 17.1 seems to say that L cannont ovetake and claim proper course and luff up while the overlap exists.

W holds steady course reaching toward the line on STB. Some argue that proper course controls and is anywhere L wants to go.
The keys being how far apart they are when overlap is established, and defining PROPER COURSE. Anyone able to help explain the explanation?

NOTE- before going further in this thread, please note:
Rule 17 has been totally changed. No sections. 2013-2016 complete rule follows:

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same
tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.


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Last edited by bigfoot55 on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Rule has been totally revised with 2013-2016 rules.
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Postby Capt. Flak » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:11 pm

Tom, the first thing is to understand what a proper course is. This is taken (word for word) from Dave Perry's book, "Undestanding the Racing Rules of Sailing"

<font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><b>PROPER COURSE

A course a boat would sail to <i>finish</i> as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no <i>proper course</i> before her starting signal.</b>

This is the most subjective definition in the book. It is also very important, particularly in applying rule 17 (On the Same Tack; Proper Course). The concept is very straightforward: your <i>proper course</i> is the course you think will get you from the starting line to the finishing line as quickly as possible, taking into account all the factors that will affect your speed. Typically, different sailors will have different ideas on what their fastest course is; thus different boats will have justifiably different <i>proper courses</i>.

One way to visualize this concept is to imagine a Time Trial. You and nine other sailors show up to race around a fixed-length triangle course, one at a time; the one with the fastest time wins. Around the windward reach reach course there are wind shifts, grandstands and a small man made island on the second reach for the press and photographers. You start. You've already calculated the fastest path up the first beat, accounting for wind shifts, waves, current, time lost while tacking and so on. Down the first reach, as you approach the grandstand area you notice it's creating a huge wind shadow so you bear away to avoid the light air and break through to leeward as quickly as possible. On the second reach, you've calculated that passing to leeward of the press island is the shortest, fastest route to the leeward mark. You finish.

The next boat starts. But this boat goes a different way up the beat. And it doesn't think the grandstand's wind shadow is that bad, so it doesn't bear off as much. And finally it passes the press island to windward and finishes. Both boats were trying to race and finish as quickly as possible and so they were both sailing <i>proper courses</i>. In fact, all the boats may have had different opinions as to the fastest course that day. The course each boat sailed was a <i>proper course</i>.

Clearly it is possible that there may be several proper courses at any given moment, depending upon the particular circumstances involved. However, because it is often difficult to prove when someone is actually on a <i>proper course</i> as opposed to sailing extra high or low for tactical purposes, ISAF Case 25 suggests, "Which of two different courses is the faster one to the next mark cannot be determined in advance and is not necessarily proven by one boat or the other reaching the next mark ahead." For protest committees, two reasonable criteria for judging a <i>proper course</i> are whether the boat sailing it has a logical reason for its being a <i>proper course</i> and whether she applies it with some consistency.

The phrase <i>"in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term"</i> clarifies which boats to "remove" when determining whether a course is a <i>proper course</i> or not. Note that it certainly does not mean "in the absence of all the boats in the race." Let's say you and another boat are sailing down a reach. You catch up and establish an <i>overlap</i> to <i>leeward</i> of the other boat (W). Rule 17.1 (On the Same Tack; Proper Course) tells you that you cannot sail above your <i>proper course</i> while <i>overlapped</i> with W. Because W is the other boat referred to in rule 17.1, your <i>proper course</i> is your fastest course in the absence of W.

As you and W continue down the reach, you begin catching up to a group of boats in front of you going slowly. Now you have to decide whether to head up and try to pass the group to <i>windward</i>, or bear away and try to pass them to <i>leeward</i>. You decide that you will arrive at the gybe mark faster by heading up and passing the group to <i>windward</i>, but by heading up, you will collide with the <i>windward</i> boat. In this case, heading up can be considered your <i>proper course</i> because you would do so even in the absence of W.

The point is: your <i>proper course</i> should be based on what will get you to the next <i>mark</i> and ultimately to the finishing line as quickly as possible, not on a tactical consideration such as heading up to cut off a nearby windward boat. Note that the rules referring to <i>proper courses</i> are rules 17.1, 17.2, 18.1(b) and 18.4.

Notice also that there is no <i>proper course</i> <b>before</b> the starting signal. That is because a <i>proper course</i> is the course sailed to <i>finish</i> as soon as possible. Obviously, you can't start racing toward the finishing line until you are allowed to <i>start</i>; therefore, there is no <i>proper course</i> until after the starting signal is made.
</font id="Times New Roman"></font id="size3">

I hope this helps. Also please note that this was taken from an older copy of the book and the noted rules may be slightly different, but this definition has not changed in the new rules.

So the leeward boat that gets an overlap from clear astern and within two lengths is limited, but that does not mean W can hold to their same course. They must keep clear of L.

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Postby bigfoot55 » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:34 pm

I'm looking for some additional input Joe. Specifically I still want someone to address the specific clauses in the rule. What do they mean and how to apply them. Let's please confine this to the conditions of 17.1 and a mid leg, non converging course reaching to the finish line situation.

What is the differece in application to the rule between overlap achieved within two boat lengts vs more that two further away? What does " unless as a result she becomes clear astern" mean as it applies to the rule? What does " remain overlapped " mean and how is it applied within the rule.

I won't copy it, but, please look at the explanation at http://www.shark24.org/goingson/Racing/ ... ead%20boat

Now as to 'proper course', I do understand the definition. However as it has been applied to 17.1, if there is no limit to what you think your proper course is, why have a prohibition about sailing above your proper course and a period of prohibition in the rule???? Does not make sense to me. Must mean something. The rule is in English after all.

And then you state L is limited in your last paragraph. HOW is it limited? What can she do and what can't she do. If her proper course is anything she wants it to be, that is not a limit is it.

Can anyone address the specific questions? Is it applied the same in all areas of the country? Thanks

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Postby tag1945 » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:59 pm

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Postby bigfoot55 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:59 pm

Well, lots of readers but no responses outside of Jaksonville, guess everybody understands it better that I do. So in Jacksonville anyway a PROPER COURSE equals whereever LEEWARD wants to go. If that is fully acceptable everywhere I now understand it. That makes 17.1 the Seinfeld rule- a rule about nothing.

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Postby Capt. Flak » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:55 pm

Tom,

Perhaps nobody else has chimed in is because we have done a really good job of explaining the rule.

I am really not following your chain of thought now. Nowhere did anyone in JACKSONVILLE say that a leeward boat could sail where ever it wanted to when limited by rule 17.1. Once again for the record, Ls PROPER COURSE is the course she would take in the absence of W. SO, if L is limited by rule 17.1, she can only sail has high as she would have if W were not there, taking into consideration wind, current, obstructions etc. In other words, she may not try to take you up for tactical reasons.

NOW, will somebody from outside of Jacksonville please let us all know if we are right or wrong on anything in this chain.

And I'll see you at the lake on Sunday Tom. [:)]

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Postby Rick West » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:36 pm

Hehe...okay. Joe is correct and I make it simpler; L cannot do anything tactical enroute to the mark or rounding it even if the boat wants to point.

Additionally, and I have not looked it up but it is my understanding that there in no Proper Course on the pre-start side of the start line. Makes sense, as you are not on the race course yet.

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Postby Ken S » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:55 pm

...from the Case Book for 2005-2008.

Rule 17.1, On the Same Tack; Proper Course

CASE 7
When, after having been clear astern, a boat becomes overlapped to
leeward within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, the windward boat must keep clear, but the leeward boat must not sail above her proper course and must initially give the windward boat room to keep clear.

CASE 14
When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper
course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must
keep clear. There can be more than one proper course.

CASE 46
A leeward boat is entitled to sail up to her proper course, even when she has established a leeward overlap from clear astern.


It all has to do with proper course...<b>the leeward boat may not luff up to cause windward to luff</b>, leeward may only come up to her proper course or tack and promptly sail astern of windward. If leeward can point higher, and that is her proper course, causing the windward boat to luff and/or tack, so be it.

There are good explainations w/illustrations in the Team Sailing Case Book, Calls A1, C4, D5, D7, F1, F3, F4. Pay attention to the explaination of figure 2 in Call F1. It shows a simple way the proper course restriction can be broken.

http://www.sailing.org/rrs2005/trcallbook2005.pdf
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Postby s vernon » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:37 pm

Rick,

You say "even if the boat wants to point."

Awful easy to defend a course where you are pointing high going upwind as being one choice of proper course, don't you think. And that is all that leeward has to do. Sail a defensible "proper course".


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Postby bigfoot55 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:39 pm

Joe- you said "SO, if L is limited by rule 17.1, she can only sail has high as she would have if W were not there, taking into consideration wind, current, obstructions etc. In other words, she may not try to take you up for tactical reasons."
First time I have heard or seen that expressed. That was my original argument but seemed to be shot down to whatever you can convince the protest committee to accept as 'proper course'.
Ken- thanks for the link to the 'Call Book". That is a helpful site adn I'll study it.
Rick- I was addressing a reaching leg to the finish line, nothing to do with pre-start. You said to make it simpler " L cannot do anything tactical enroute to the mark or rounding it even if the boat wants to point." That's what I thought originally. That wouod be simpler, but as Scott points out, the fly in the ointment is 'Proper Course'. It seems that it is possible to rationalize or justify just about anything for 'proper course', an anticipated wind shift for instance.

Ya'll notee 32nd AC Challangers propose to get 17.1 clarified.
" from the Kiwi 32nd Americas Cup site.
Racing Rules 17.1 and 18.4 – A proposal by a Challenger working party to amend the "proper courseâ€
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Postby Skip Quinn » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:50 pm

Thanks for exlpaining that Joe. It helped alot.[8D]
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Postby s vernon » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:48 am

I hate to see misinformation sitting there in the internet for people to read and possibly become confused.

Here is what I should have written

Tom,

"Just about anything" for proper course is a big stretch from what I said. If you round the mark and head high to go to the finish line or wherever, that is one thing. You can probably justify that as being worried about a windshift. But if you gain an overlap to leeward within 2 lengths of another boat and at that point you head up, then that is another. Some courses you can say with conviction, "I would have sailed that course anyway, because...." But other courses: It is pretty obvious that you changed course to try to make it easier to pass another boat. In this case you would probably be trying to make her tack away – perhaps heading her up all the way from a reach to head to wind. No matter how much or how little you head up it will probably be deemed illegal because of the timing of the course change.

In the second case (in the absence of a sudden windshift or other occurence which you could use in defense of your action) you obviously are heading up in order to tactically try to attack the other boat and hopefully work your way passed her. Not legal.

It is not a simple rule, but there is generally some easy logic in settling protests.

Scott


Here is what I wrote which is incorrect as Joe pointed out. Thank you, Joe:


Tom,

"Just about anything" for proper course is a big stretch from what I said. If you round the mark and head high to go to the finish line or wherever, that is one thing. You can probably justify that as being worried about a windshift. But if another boat starts to pass you to weather and of all of a sudden you head up, then that is another. Some courses you can say with conviction, "I would have sailed that course anyway, because...." But other courses: It is pretty obvious that you changed course to try to keep another boat from passing you.

In the second case you obviously are heading up in order to tactically try to keep the other boat from passing. Not legal.

It is not a simple rule, but there is generally some easy logic in settling protests.

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Postby bigfoot55 » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:08 am

I was addressing the application to rule 17.1 If the rule prohibits heading up for tactical advantage as opposed to the fastest way to finish or the next mark, makes sense to me. If you pass a boat close aboard to leeward on a reach then you cannot luff up untill you break the overlap?
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Postby Capt. Flak » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:26 am

Got em talking now Tom!

Scott, we are talking about rule 17.1 which limits a leeward boat when it established an overlap from clear astern. If you are talking about passing to windward, then L can take you up to the beach if he likes.

This chain was prompted by a discussion at our lake this past weekend when on a down wind (broad reach) to the finish, one boat caught another from behind and within about a foot fo each other. The windward boat held his course but so did the leeward boat. Because they were sailing about 1 degree off from each other, it did not take long to close the gap and touch. W claimed L was sailing up and L said W was sailing down. As the witness, I said each boat held their course which was not the right thing for W to do. W needed to keep clear. It was not a heated situation on the lake, but it did get everyone thinking.

Proper Course is a tough one. It can be very easy for L to claim he was on his proper course, while W has a very hard time proving to a committee that L was not. That is what this chain is about and I appreciate the input from everyone.

Ken Morrison, you out there? What say ye?

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Postby Rick West » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:11 pm

I see you guys want to debate the point. In my view of the race situation I keep it as simple as possible. There is not enough time for me to deal with the details. If my competitor is the same then we are happy and do not have to get into a discussion on the race course that takes away from racing concentration. This is a solo sailing effort and there is no delegation. If I pull up along side and leeward to a boat, I cannot get tactical.

As to point: I have long stood in my reflections on paper that a good lay line is one that allows the boat to drive. In doing so I will not be at full close haul and not vanging. Those sail sets are only for defense of my position. The simplicity of it is that if I am pointing all that I can for a lay line I have no reserve for that line. Further, if I need to drive for wakes or sea I will fall below the lay line.

Hence in reference to 17.1, if I am driving I cannot point above Proper Course forcing a windward boat to keep clear. When in the circle for a mark I can have buoy room and no more.

The position I take on this matter is mine and that which I use on the racecourse. Deeper review and research is good because it illuminates a rule that many are not aware of. Hehe, if I was on the veranda with you guys I would be drunk before it was over and we would laugh about in the morning holding our heads. It was a good thing to bring up, Tom.

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