2 boats converging - cross or hit?

[s vernon]

When sailing upwind I have always had a problem determining if that boat on the other tack is on a collision course with me or if we will cross. Somewhere I heard about "making trees" and it was expained to me, but I did not get it. I found this website 2 years ago, read the info and still did not get it. I picked up the printed copy today, looked at the picture and the light went on. I figured this would be good info to share.

http://duckworksmagazine.com/r/vintage/ ... ensive.htm

If it is not obvious to you - as it wasn't to me: You are sailing upwind. Another boat on the opposite tack may or may not be on a collision course with your boat. The way I would apply it to model boats, and I would appreciate any info that clears it up further or makes it easier for me, you need to line up your boat, the other boat and a handy lighthouse on the far shore. No, but you do need something on the far shore to line up with.

As you sail along you would walk so as to keep your boat lined up with the lighthouse and take note of whether the other boat is "making trees", that is he is getting further ahead relative to the lighthouse which means he will pass ahead of you, or he is losing trees or falling back relative to the lighthouse which means you will pass ahead of him. And if the boats stay lined up then unless someone changes speed or course they will hit.

I will double the size of the bumper on my bow and give this a try. Heads up, Jack!

Scott

[Rick West]

The alignment to a "lighthouse" is to simulate you being aboard. If you were aboard then the relationships you describe will be correct. As as pilot, if the airplane I see in the windscreen is not moving then it will hit me, guarantee.

...94

[Philip Whitley]

Now thats funny [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[MichaelJ2K]

If in doubt, tack and cover.

[IanHB]

[:X]I have posted this on a number of forums for general discussion.

At the recent NZ EC12 national champs a number of situations occured which need some discussion to help all skippers understand the rules as they apply to us.
The rules concerned are (15; Acquiring right of way) and (16.1; Changing course)

Here is the situation;
Two boats on a windward leg. Both on port tack, the leeward boat clear ahead by one length and about one length to leeward.
The leeward boat tacks and calls "STARBOARD" The port tack boat responds with helm hard over but still contacts the right of way boat.

The jist of the discussion is that with the character of the class ie; slow responce and slow turning that in a number of cases, insufficient room is left for you to respond to a boat tacking infront of you to avoid making contact.
The skipper who has tacked onto starboard always considers that they are the " right of way boat", which way well be disputed if there has been insufficent room allowed to respond.

Those of us who sail other classes know that a ONE METRE will "spin on a dime" but a 12 takes a little more time and space.

Do we as 12 sailors need to keep this in mind and allow more room?
Do we need to talk more to each other on the course with warnings of actions?
Do judges need to be tougher on insufficent room calls?
Or is it every man for himself and I will see you in the protest room?

Let`s get your views.
_________________[:(!][8][:(][8)][:o)]

DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late

[Philip Whitley]

It is with shame [B)] that I agree with Ian, I was one of the offenders at the recent Nats [xx(], In one incident (my only wrong in the entire event [:0]), I did tack back on Brian Hogg claiming Starboard. This was done out of the passion of the moment [}:)] to hold him as he was climbing higher than I, however I did my penalty turn [:o)] with no argument as It was obvious Instantly [?], that I should have called or hailed him and given him time.

Ians points are correct, we need to discuss these things as they only make us better sailors on the water. There I feel free again.

Phil [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[kahle67]

I think communication is very important in a situation like this. Who knows, the boat you are about to tack in front of could be looking back at another competitor at the time and a few seconds could pass before he even realizes that you are now on starboard.

It is hard to judge how much time and distance that is necessary to give for the other boat to be able to keep clear. When I am in the situation described above, this is what I would be thinking to myself. "Can I complete my tack onto starboard and then count to three before crossing the other boats track?" If the answer is yes, then I feel there is plenty of time and room and it could be argued sucessfully in the protest room all day long. Just remember that you are not the right of way boat until your tack is completed and you are close hauled on starboard. This comfort zone of mine is subject to change depending on the conditions and the other skipper's abilities and typical reaction times. It is always better to duck or crash tack back to port than to be involved in a colision which in the very least will cost you all of your boat speed.

In the spirit of "sailing clean" and "staying out of trouble", I do think it wise to make sure the other skipper is aware of what you are doing or about to do so that he has a few extra seconds to consider his next move while you are still completing your tack.

Reichard Kahle
USA 1767

[Capt. Flak]

Last weekend in Daytona, this very same thing happened between three boats. All three boats were on Port sailing out to the far side of the course. I was windward and clear astern of the other two. Harry was in the middle, clear ahead and leeward of me, but clear astern and windard of Jim. While I was the most burdened of the three boats, I was in a controlling position as the other two could not complete their tacks cleanly. I wanted to go a little farther to the right so that I could get to the layline and maybe have the inside at the mark. Jim was already on the layline and Harry was getting nervous.

Harry asked if he could make his tack cleanly. I said, "I don't know, can you?" I was fully prepared to tack away or dip his stern, but I did not want to just give it to him. As long as he had a doubt, I could stay where I wanted to be. It was working.

Unfortunately Jim was not so patient and made a very quick tack to starboard right infront of Harry. There was no time for Harry to react and the hard crash also resulted in a tangle. They eventually untangled, but by then the whole fleet sailed by.

It was a clear case of tacking too close and not giving room. And while Harry was doing the right thing in looking at the situation and seeing that he could not tack cleanly on me, he also needed to be ready for what ever Jim was going to do. Harry and I were talking and thinking about what to do, but Jim was not in on the conversation with us.

I don't fault Jim too much. It was a long way out there and he might have thought he had room from that distance, but had he at least announced to Harry, that he wanted to tack, Harry would have been ready to given him the room. I would have too.

I guess there is a fine line between being in control and not wanting to give it up and deciding to give up that control for safety. Safety should always be the first choice.

Joe Walter #24

[greerdr]

The gem in all the posts is "TALK".We do get caught up in our own world but communicating and giving the other guy a heads-up on your intent is always a good idea.I think we are getting better at this in Fl.

R.C.Greer

[Doug Wotring]

I like to practice at standing/walking right next to the boat(s) next to me....this allows for very easy communication without yelling half way up the shore line.

Communication is half the battle.

[Ken S]

Joe are you saying next time you're in this position you will allow both boats to tack over freely?

Ken

[Capt. Flak]

Ken,

What I mean is that in this situation we were a long way out in the lake and depth perseption was a major factor. As the burdened boat, I was aware that these guys may come head to wind or tack at any moment. I was ready for that and had already looked at my options to either tack away or duck. Which choice I made was not yet clear, but I was thinking about it.

Harry, was also thinking about it as he was asking me questions. He might have made the tack clean or might not have. By me keeping him guessing, I had the advantage. If he came head to wind, I would have to keep clear. If he tacked over hard, he would have to give me room and opportunity to keep clear. I do not have to anticipate what he will do. (but good sense does make you think about anticipating)

If you are asking if I will give up my advatange when ever challenged, that is a completely different question, and you will just have to keep guessing there.

What I am saying is, I will always be talking to the guys around me and thinking of the next move, what is ahead, and what thing I may or may not need to do.

The hole event lasted about 30 seconds or so. The point is to talk with the guys around you, so they know you are aware of them and understand what is going on and what might happen next that you should be prepared for.

Joe Walter #24

[bodacious]

Now Joe... you know ... and I know.... that you wouldn't give Harry an INCH...LOL I wouldn't either.... and I sail with him every week!! LOL [:D] DB ( seeya in a few weeks)

[Chuck Luscomb]

In the area of conversation between skippers, might I share an incident that occurred as a result of non Corinthian exchange.

A few years ago I sailed in a regatta which will remain nameless. I got a great jump off the line and had the inside lane at the mark rounding. I continued to hold my lead for the run and the next beat. On the next run, I sailed into a hole and sat while the next two boats carried their breeze right to me. I have not seen this before and not since but when they arrived, one boat went to weather and the other to leeward of me and when they were right next to me, the breeze hit my boat like a slap from above and suddenly, I was sailing the same speed in between these two guys running into the leeward mark (we were several boat lengths from the 4 boat zone).

My first reaction to save position (I was on port tack) was to take the boat to my left up (he was also on port tack) hence I was leeward boat. My plan was to take him up to the port layine and gybe putting him directly behind me and I could converge with the boat that was to my right and earn the inside overlap at the mark.

All was going according to plan when the boat I was taking up got wise to my plan and gybed over to starboard which forced me to also gybe. So here we come into the mark and the other boat that was on my right was nearly at the mark. As we came into the zone, I hailed the other boat suggesting that I thought I might have an inside overlap and will need room to give the boat inside of me room to round the mark. The response from this skipper was insane. He shouted at me like I insulted him saying "YOU HAVE ABSOLUTLY NO OVERLAP AND I WILL NOT GIVE YOU ROOM!" I responded in a very calm voice, "Well, then I should clear your transom with no problem then". As I hardened up to take his stern, it became evident that I did have an overlap of at least 6 inches or so because I hit his transom which spun him around and all three of us ended up in a big mess costing all of us position.

In some cases, Skippers tend to bully their way around the race course possibly thinking that shouting and arguing will force the other skipper to back down. Some will and some will not. Might does not make you right. Communication and cooperation are key to a clean race.

Joe, thanks for the heads up on your bluff. I have written this down in my little black book!

Chuck
#1684