Rights if you miss the mark

The Racing Rules prescribe certain things. It's wise to know them, at least the basics. This area discusses the finer points of the racing rules for sailing fast.

Moderators: Capt. Flak, bigfoot55, Chuck Luscomb

Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Frandito » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:07 am

Yellow passes the windward mark on the wrong side.
Yellow remains on Starboard
Yellow contacts Blue who has tacked at the mark on to Port

what say ye?
Attachments
pic.JPG
pic.JPG (49.26 KiB) Viewed 25493 times
Victim of Soicumstances #2091
User avatar
Frandito
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:34 pm
Location:

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Capt. Flak » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:59 pm

Well I see two issues here besides having a starboard rounding which always causes issues.
We only have two diagrams of position here, so it is tough to say, but here goes.
At position 1, Blue was clear ahead of Yellow when they reached the zone, so Blue has mark room from that point on. That does not give Blue the right to tack in front of Yellow. Blue needs to get as close to the mark as she can to keep Yellow from being able to prevent her from tacking.
But at position 2 (and following the lines) Yellow appears to have altered course too close to Blue.

To me, missing the mark is not the issue as you don't lose rights because you missed the mark. All the rules still apply but you have to turn back and round it correctly. When you are turning back, you need to be aware that there will be other boats and the rules need to be followed. Just because you are turning around does not mean you have no rights.

So my answer may be a cop out here, but it seems to me that Yellow may have altered course too close to Blue thus breaking rule 16. But Blue may have tacked in front of Yellow thus breaking rule 13.
But missing the mark is not a foul.

Ok, somebody tell me I am wrong.
Joe Walter #24
Class Secretary
User avatar
Capt. Flak
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:30 am

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby greerdr » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:42 pm

Does tacking inside the circle change "rights"?
As always; giving other boat room and opportunity to avoid.
This is another "good one".
Totally agree about the starboard rounding complaint.
R.C.Greer
greerdr
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:39 pm

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby greerdr » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:51 pm

PS
I was very pleased this last week-end at Champions that skippers who missed a mark (all port roundings) usually didn't try to "punch-in" on starboard .
But at that top mark you could be on ANY tack and be in trouble because of the "swrill";wind coming over the top of an obstruction and doing strange things.
BZ to all the skippers at Charlestown:great job!
R.C.Greer
greerdr
 
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:39 pm

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby tag1945 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:09 am

At position 1;
SECTION A RULES CONTINUE TO APPLY!!!!!!
Blue is clear ahead of yellow as Blue reached the zone.
Rule 12 requires yellow to keep clear of Blue.
Since both Blue and Yellow are on the same tack, Rule 18 applies and
Rule 18.2b provides Mark-Room to Blue unless Blue passes head to wind.

At position 2;
SECTION A RULES CONTINUE TO APPLY!!!!!!
After passing the mark on the correct side for a Starboard rounding, Blue
has passed head to wind and because Blue and Yellow are no longer on the same
tack, Rule 18.2(c)(2) turned off Rule 18.2b and Blue is no longer entitled to Mark-Room.
Rule 13 applied to Blue while tacking and after Blue was on a
close hauled course, Rule 10 requires Blue to keep clear of the Starboard
tack boat Yellow boat.

Blue must take a penalty for breach of Rule 13 or Rule 10. Yellow broke Rule
14 but is exonerated because she is the ROW boat at the time of contact.

Yellow must unwind and round the mark of the correct side!

Mark-Room
Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside
and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark
after her tack .

12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern
shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

18 MARK-ROOM
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the
same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks, on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for
one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room,
unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside
boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat
is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment
shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give
that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.
However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone,
rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it
shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward
of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been
unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.

13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a
close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply. If two boats are
subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern
shall keep clear.

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way
boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping
clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage
or injury.
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Capt. Flak » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:45 am

Tom, this is a good example of why we try to avoid Starboard roundings, but from the drawing, do you not think that Yellow also may have altered course too close to Blue.

I agree with every part of your explanation right up until Yellow changed course near Blue.

That is why I think there needs to be a little more to the diagram.
For example, Did Blue luff up at the mark to keep Yellow from being able to prevent her tack? If Yellow then turned up to avoid hitting Blue from behind, and THEN Blue tacked in front of her, there is no question Blue is at fault.
But what if Yellow sailed up on purpose to try and stop Blue from tacking? Would she not have broken rule 16?
Joe Walter #24
Class Secretary
User avatar
Capt. Flak
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:30 am

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby tag1945 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:51 am

Capt. Flak wrote:Tom, this is a good example of why we try to avoid Starboard roundings, but from the drawing, do you not think that Yellow also may have altered course too close to Blue.

I agree with every part of your explanation right up until Yellow changed course near Blue.

That is why I think there needs to be a little more to the diagram.
For example, Did Blue luff up at the mark to keep Yellow from being able to prevent her tack? If Yellow then turned up to avoid hitting Blue from behind, and THEN Blue tacked in front of her, there is no question Blue is at fault.
But what if Yellow sailed up on purpose to try and stop Blue from tacking? Would she not have broken rule 16?


The graphic is very clear. If Blue had remained on Starboard tack she would have continued to be the leeward ROW boat even as Yellow was passing the mark on the wrong side. Since Yellow might have obtained a windward overlap of Blue, Blue would have full luffing rights over Yellow and could luff up to head to wind to try and force Yellow to tack away. Since Blue passed head to wind, she must KEEP CLEAR, period. You must remember that there is no rule that tells Yellow that she must sail a proper course or any course for that matter. The fact that Yellow passed the mark on the wrong side does not turn off Section A rules, or break any rule! Blue either broke Rule 13 after passing head to wind and she must keep clear, and after she passed head to wind, Rule 10 requires her to KEEP CLEAR. Because it was the actions of Blue that made Yellow the ROW boat, Rule 15 does not require Yellow to provide room and opportunity to Blue. Rule 16 would not apply as it was the action of Blue tacking too close.

Like every question, more details always can effect the answer.
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Frandito » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:36 am

The situ was hypothetical....it came up in a rules discussion

The general answer is as stated that the starboard tacker does not lose rights by missing the mark.

Does it matter if the Starboard tacker does this on purpose rather than accidentally missing the mark

Also
regarding starboard roundings - I don't see the problem......just follow the rules - No?
Victim of Soicumstances #2091
User avatar
Frandito
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:34 pm
Location:

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby tag1945 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:33 pm

Frandito wrote:The situ was hypothetical....it came up in a rules discussion

The general answer is as stated that the starboard tacker does not lose rights by missing the mark.

Does it matter if the Starboard tacker does this on purpose rather than accidentally missing the mark

Also
regarding starboard roundings - I don't see the problem......just follow the rules - No?



Fran

It does not matter if the Starboard boat misses the mark on purpose. Section A rules apply just as though the two boats were on open water. There might be a good reason if you were sailing in a team regatta to do such a maneuver, but not a good move in our fleet racing.

There is no rule to prohibit starboard roundings. You may see many Starboard roundings in head to head racing, but in fleet racing it is not preferred! Visibility!
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby DaveDell » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:10 am

I agree with Tom's analysis. Blue tacked in front of a starboard tacker and broke rule 10. I don't think Yellow changed her course enough to break rule 16. However, I do think Yellow may have a problem with rule 24.2, which says "Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with a boat . . . sailing on another leg." Blue is clearly on the next leg of the course, Yellow is almost certainly not sailing her proper course and Yellow interferes with Blue. Therefore, I think it is likely that a jury would penalize both boats in this incident.
DaveDell
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:12 am

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Rick West » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:36 am

Very Good Dave. That is what it says and better yet it makes sense. What say Ye, Tom?
...94 [8D]
Pacifica By The Sea
User avatar
Rick West
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Frandito » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:11 pm

I would consider missing a distant mark on the wrong side as "proper course"
"Hunting a competitor down" on the wrong side would be another matter
Victim of Soicumstances #2091
User avatar
Frandito
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:34 pm
Location:

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby tag1945 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:03 pm

DaveDell wrote:I agree with Tom's analysis. Blue tacked in front of a starboard tacker and broke rule 10. I don't think Yellow changed her course enough to break rule 16. However, I do think Yellow may have a problem with rule 24.2, which says "Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with a boat . . . sailing on another leg." Blue is clearly on the next leg of the course, Yellow is almost certainly not sailing her proper course and Yellow interferes with Blue. Therefore, I think it is likely that a jury would penalize both boats in this incident.



I cannot find a Case or Call that could explain how to apply 24.2 to this situation. Blue would certainly be penalized for breaking either Rule 13 or 10. I have not found a good definition that tells us when a leg of the course begins or ends. I would think that because Blue has not rounded the mark onto the next leg, and even though Yellow has missed the mark on the wrong side, she is still on the same leg of the course as Blue until Blue is actually on the next leg. I would also think that the leg begins as you pass the mark. I would apply the same logic as the starting marks where the starting line is the course side of the starting marks and you are not on the 1st leg until you have passed the mark.

I will do some further research on this....

Thanks Dave
Let me know if you find more information on a situation like this
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Capt. Flak » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:22 am

Ok, I have a question. Where are you guys getting the diagrams for these rules questions?
Joe Walter #24
Class Secretary
User avatar
Capt. Flak
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:30 am

Re: Rights if you miss the mark

Postby Frandito » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:43 am

go to
http://tss.peronneau.net/

for the program i am using
Victim of Soicumstances #2091
User avatar
Frandito
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:34 pm
Location:

Next

Return to Sailing with the RRS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron