Windward-leeward or no time to respond

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Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Frandito » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:44 am

The situ:

Two boats are tight reaching
They are overlapped with bows even
The leeward boat is 1/2 boat length to leeward of the windward boat.
Both boats are steering a straight course on the rhumb line to the next mark.
A puff hits the leeward boat and she rounds up quickly.
The leeward boat strikes the windward boat.

what is the call?
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby tag1945 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:19 am

Frandito

This situation comes up quite often. There are 4 rules that are going to apply:
1. Rule 11 On the same tack and overlapped. (I assumed)
2. Rule 14 Avoid Contact
3. Definition of Keep Clear
4. Rule 16.1 When a ROW boat changes course (compass course) she must provide room and opportunity for the keep clear boat to keep clear.

My call with your information:

I believe that the Keep Clear boat was to close and broke Rule 11 by not keeping clear. The definition of keep clear states that if the boats are overlapped on the same tack, and if the ROW boat cannot change course, in both directions, without immediately making contact with the windward boat, she is not keeping clear.

If you have said that they were overlapped on opposite tacks in this situation, Rule 10, Rule 14 and Rule 16 would apply.

The keep clear boat must also be prepared for a sudden wind shift.

Keep Clear:
One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course
with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on
the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions
without immediately making contact with the windward boat
.
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Capt. Flak » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:27 am

Not to challenge Tom's answer here, but I have a view points based on what Fran wrote. First he said they were a half a boat length apart and bow to bow. So that means about 2.5 feet apart. That to me would not be the case of failing to keep clear under the definition. The leeward boat would have to turn up hard to make immediate contact I do not see this being the case. To me, immediate contact is when you turn your helm just a little and there is contact right away. In other words the windward boat was so close that the leeward boat could do nothing but sail straight to avoid her. 2.5 feet away does not seem to fit the definition. Just my opinion.

Also, if they were overlapped bow to bow and on a close reach, how did the leeward boat get the puff and not the windward boat? Seems to me they both would have turned up together in this puff. Strange! But then I have seen all kinds of strange things sailing these boats.

That said, The windward boat does need to keep clear and the leeward boat only needs to give her room to keep clear when she makes a course change. If she turned up so quickly that the windward boat had no room and opportunity, then the Leeward boat broke rule 16.1. As the windward boat, you need to be aware and ready to react to any course change that the ROW boat might make, but you do not have to anticipate that change until it actually happens. Then you get room and opportunity to keep clear.

So YES, if you were so close to the leeward boat that it could not turn in any direction without IMMEDIATELY making contact with you, then you failed to keep clear, as Tom said. I just think that 2.5 feet away is a long way and there should have been plenty of opportunity for both boats to keep clear or avoid contact. I think more info from another witness would help.
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Frandito » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:58 am

thanks to both of you

I will go over this info with our guys
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Rick West » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:45 pm

Hold on, Fran, this is not over.

For the reasons Joe have mentioned in the position of the boats, I respectfully disagree with Tom's call. Two boats overlapped with this separation is reasonable caution when they are on the layline for a mark. In these cases, if the leeward boat wants to do some tactical racing to force off the windward boat, simple communications like, "I am going to bring you up" or "I am out pointing you, please keep clear." When the leeward boat begins to act with consideration for reactions, the windward boat moves up till it has to tack. It must tack while there is room to do so. "I can't tack or I will make contact with you," does not cut it for any excuse.

However, as Tom has shown the rule says, "...another if the other can sail her course
with no need to take avoiding action." In my opinion both should see a gust coming on the water and be prepared for a countering action. Failure to react by the leeward boat should not place the onus on the windward boat for not reacting faster than the other.

They are on the layline. Other than tactical games all is cool. What is the first thing you do in the gust, or see one coming? You foot the main and hold the jib. That is sailing and controlling the boat. To me the skipper of the leeward boat lost control of her and makes contact with the windward boat trying to ovoid the other violates Rule 14.

That would be my presentation at the hearing.
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby tag1945 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:40 pm

Asking a Rule Question

To ask for an opinion on a situation or Rule, please use this guide for providing the information:
1. We need to know what happen before, during, and after the incident that occurred.

2. If your question involves multiple boats, try and get a situation report on the incident from all of the boats involved.

3. Use the Protest form as a guide to help you explain the situation

4. Understand that the opinion you receive is based on the information you have provided. Any small change in the situation can have drastic changes in the opinion.

5. If you have a link to a graphic, include it in your request. Pictures are always worth a thousand words.
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Capt. Flak » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:53 am

Here we go. Tom is not wrong, Rick is not wrong and I am not wrong. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. One more little point that might have been missed is how the overlap was established between the two boats. Might the Leeward boat be restricted by Rule 17?

Tom's second point is very important. We need a lot of info to sort it out correctly. Witnesses help as well. This is why it is often a good thing to take your protest to committee. It does not have to be about settling an argument, it can be about learning something new or seeing things in a different way. If both parties are not racing for vital points, let one of them do a turn now and get on with the race. Then go ahead and have a discussion about it with the committee after the heat or later in the day. You may find out something new that will help you be a better sailor and sportsman.

One of the best things about sailing model boats is that we have so many more opportunities to see the rules in action compared to big boats. Why not take some time to go to committee and learn from it? The committee is not always about punishment.
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Rick West » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:49 pm

We are not going anywhere. It is not a matter of wrongs. It is not a matter of minutiae. We know the windward/leeward rule. Windward dies because another lost control of their boat or an act of God. Sorry, I have more compassion than this on the water.

If windward fails to response to a threat from a leeward boat in a tactical move, she commits a foul.

If windward cannot respond to an aggressive move by the leeward boat then the onus is on leeward.

If leeward makes contact with windward after a comfortable and reasonable separation due to an outside force of nature then, "sorry my friend" and sail on and continue racing. BS on the rules and hail to friendly competition. This is not war or legal ambulance chasing.

It is like the disgusting considerations at the last NCR where during a start we have inches of separation in a pack moving in the same direction and all "overlapped", one is called for the windward/leeward rule for the contact even though no impairment to the start was caused. I find this practice of gaining the advantage by forcing another to a penalty a mark of character and noted.

Technically, you are right about when the overlap occurred. They always at some point occur and who remembers unless seconds after both changed tacks.

The rule is clear if you want to carry it to the three decimal places. Everyday you drive a car you break laws and 99.9% of the time offend and hurt no one. Tom and I have had this discussion and we do not disagree on the principles and spirit of the rules but when you go to court, compassion and friendship is put aside to the cold facts.

I applaud the group at Bluffton is their continuing quest to learn and sail by the rules. It is a wonderful experience to sail and visit there. Questions like what Fran brings illuminates one of the basic rules that is easy to remember and practice. It is when the print does not present the perfect world that we need to pause and reflect why we are coming together here.
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Re: Windward-leeward or no time to respond

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:06 am

Fran et al...

Lots of good points in addition to Toms comments. Rick is right, cold hard facts will always win in court. Strict application of the rules works when tempers flare and skippers go to the room. How does a cold rules interpretation help you? Based on the facts you present, all it is going to do is determine who would get a penalty in this case.

How to avoid this situation in the first place since appears that the ROW boat lost control and was not an intentional defending action on his part.

As Rick points out, chatter helps quite a bit as well as thinking ahead and anticipating the outcome.

Weather boat...

If you see the puff coming, the weather boat may have to separate further knowing that EC12's will round up like this when over powered from a beam reach to dead astern. Anticipate that you or the leeward boat will loose control or struggle to keep control. Since in this case you were reaching, the weather boat may try to keep control by easing sails and bearing off to leeward but will need room to execute this. It is quite common in our fleet when sailing in puffy conditions, skippers tend to widen the gap between boats for just this reason.

ROW or Leeward boat...

Although in court, you may win, when you loose control you will loose. The real trick is keeping control. In this case, you lost control and hit the weather boat. If he was on his game and kept clear, you would have been passed by him while you fight to get the bow back down. Who knows who else would have passed you.


What you can do to keep control...

Make sure your equipment is working correctly and you have full rudder travel. Most rudder servos can be a bit anemic in puffy winds. I use a feature called "offset levers" which helps the servo in wider helm angles by using lever lengths to improve power.

Ease your sails while you head dead down wind. Takes the pressure off the rudder and allows the boat to respond. If you don't ease your sails, your turn will be sluggish and may be too late. Once there, small rudder movements to keep the bow dead down wind. If you apply too much rudder, it will act like a brake and force you into a round up faster.

Hope this helps Fran,
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