Tacking to close

[marcsmith]

Blue and yellow on Port tack Green on Starboard.

Yellow is ROW over Blue Green is ROW over Yellow and Blue..

Yellow notices that green is sailing a much higher course as a result of a favorable shift.

Blue is planning on passing Green's stern and is making the assumption that yellow will be doing the same thing

Yellow decides it doesn't want to be on port tack anymore and thinks that tacking under green and being on starboard is the favored tack and changes tack at position #2. Call it a "crazy Ivan" tack. no warning no easing up toward blue just a hard over. at position 2 immediately after her sails fill yellow makes contact with blue amid ships.

Blue is claiming yellow tacked too close, yellow is claiming she was on starboard with full sails.

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear
of a starboard-tack boat
13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats
until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11
and 12 do not apply.


In this instance even though yellow was close hauled, the quickness of her tack did not give blue any time or opportunity to keep clear. With the model boats, once we are 20-30* off the wind our sails are pretty much full. there is no "sheeting in" of the sails like on larger boats no watching the other boats crew to have an indication of an impending course change.

As a secondary discussion...as we sail on ponds with shifty winds at times. its not uncommon for the "auto tack", IE a substantial and quick wind shift. When that occurs, rules are 100% in force Correct? There are times when as a club and this occurs, while unpleasant, often spoken is "no harm no foul, sail on" But at other times, some discussion ensues about being control of ones boat and keeping clear of other boats when tacking even when the tack is completely based on a wind shift with no change or minor change in the boats direction.

[tag1945]

Mark

At Position 1
Green is the Starboard ROW boat over Blue and Yellow on Port tack.
Yellow is the Leeward ROW boat over Green.
Rules that apply:
Rule 10:
Rule 11:
Rule 19:
Always: Rule 14, 15 & 16

At Position 2
As Yellow and Blue are approaching the ROW Starboard tack Green boat, Rule 19 allows the ROW Port tack to decide which way to pass the obstruction.
Rules that apply:
Rule 10:
Rule 11:
Rule 13:
Rule 19.2a:
Rule 20:
Always: Rule 14, 15 & 16

To answer your question "Did yellow break Rule 13", the answer in your report on the incident indicates that she did.
Yellow, apparently was not well versed in the rules that cover this situation. Yellow failed to follow Rule 19.2a and Rule 20 in a timely manner soon enough.

Your graphic and description of the incident leaves many questions. From the time Yellow and Blue were approaching Green, the Rule that should have been followed was Rule 19.2a and Rule 20. Yellow was the ROW boat over Blue and should have hailed Blue for room to tack to avoid the obstruction, Green Boat. If Yellow wanted to pass astern of the obstruction, Yellow would have been required to provide room for blue to also pass astern of Green. If Yellow does attempt to pass astern of Green, Blue does not have to follow Yellow and pass astern. Blue might asset the situation differently that yellow and believes that she does not need to follow Yellow astern of Green. If Yellow wanted to tack under Green onto Starboard, then she would use Rule 19.2a for her authority to choose which side of the obstruction to pass and Rule 20 would provide the hailing requirements which include, that if Blue does tack, Yellow must also tack, even if Yellow then though she might be able to pass astern of the obstruction.

Your secondary discussion: There never has been a "No harm, No foul" rule for contact. Period. As the skipper of your boat, you must always provide the necessary room from other boats to prevent any contact. Period. You are never exempt from following the rules because of seas or wind gusts, shifts or whatever. If you loose control of your boat, and you hail the loss of control, other boats are required to keep clear of you. Period

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

14:AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury.

15: 15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat's actions.

16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.

19 ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
19.1 When Rule 19 Applies
Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side. However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.
19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
(c) While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.

20 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION
20.1 Hailing and Responding
When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same tack. After a boat hails,
(a) she shall give the hailed boat time to respond
(b) the hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her, and
(c) when the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.
20.2 Exoneration
When a boat is taking room to which she is entitled under rule 20.1(b), she shall be exonerated if she breaks a rule of Section A or rule 15 or 16.
20.3 When Not to Hail
A boat shall not hail unless safety requires her to make a substantial course change to avoid the obstruction. Also, she shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark that the hailed boat is fetching.

Applying all the rules to any situation, will help develop good sailing tactics also.....

Tom

[marcsmith]

I know there has never been a rule to allow for for minimal side-side boat contact... but i think we all have been part of model boat racing sailing where the point of view, hard see boats, far mark, ect, we hear the side to side sound of clorox bottles being taped against one another.. so we know contact WAS made, juts not sure who made what contact... Obviously in a fleet of boats it may hard to tell who did what. but if it only two boats and contact was made someone owes a turn...

I think the "incidental" contact is also one of the issues like the leeward mark rounding as RC and I were discussing where people can get upset as sometimes the rule is called and sometimes not so its frustrating... As we model boat skipper do sail a bit closer together than out big boat brethren and out boat do react much quicker...

Another question. refer the orginal drawing, and take green boat out of the situation.

if yellow wants to tack the only thing she can do is luff blue while giving blue opportunity to keep clear and hope blue eventually tacks over... Correct?

Now if yellow luffs blue, and yellow passes head to wind but blue does not, yellow has violated rule 15. and Rule 13 ? now determining if yellow passed head to wind from 100 feet way is the hard part...

[tag1945]

Mark

"I think the "incidental" contact is also one of the issues like the leeward mark rounding as RC and I were discussing where people can get upset as sometimes the rule is called and sometimes not so its frustrating... As we model boat skipper do sail a bit closer together than out big boat brethren and out boat do react much quicker"

Your questions:
1. Another question. refer the original drawing, and take green boat out of the situation.
If yellow wants to tack the only thing she can do is luff blue while giving blue opportunity to keep clear and hope blue eventually tacks over... Correct?


The first thing you must do is establish what rules apply prior to the incident. Since Yellow and Blue were overlapped on the same tack, Rule 11 applied. We also have to know how the overlap began to determine if Rule 17 applied and limited Yellow to sail no higher than her proper course. Yellow's proper course would not be sailing with luffing sails as that would not be the fastest way around the course. If Rule 17 did not apply, then Yellow could luff Blue up to head to wind providing she complied with Rule 14 and 16, providing Blue room and opportunity to keep clear. If Yellow was trimmed better than Blue, she might be able to force Blue to tack while she held a head to wind course. I hope you can see how important it is to know what happen BEFORE, DURING and AFTER an incident.

2. Now if yellow luffs blue, and yellow passes head to wind but blue does not, yellow has violated rule 15. and Rule 13 ? now determining if yellow passed head to wind from 100 feet way is the hard part...

Yellow must continue to obey her limitation while luffing under Rule 14 and 16. Rule 15 applies when a boat acquires the Right of way. Yellow, as the ROW boat, must always provide room and opportunity for other boats while he alters her compass course, Rule 16. As Yellow passes head to wind, Rule 13 requires her to keep clear of all other boats! If Blue had to alter her course because of Yellow passing head to wind, Yellow would break rule 13.
The best way to determine if a boat has passed head to wind is watch her sails. When her sails are just luffing, she has not passed head to wind. She is at Head to Wind. When her sails fall to the opposite side of the boat, she has passed head to wind. Rule 13 requires a boat that has passed head to wind to keep clear of other boats until she is on a close hauled course. This course is a compass course and is not the position of her sails. This is a course she would sail if she actually was sailing close hauled to windward.

Incidental Contact (My Opinion, not a rule)
There was a time in the pass when "Incidental Contact" was not considered a breach of the rules in RC sailing. The rules today allow for no contact. The best way for this to happen is for the Race Committee to set up a course that provides the best visibility for the skippers. If the only thing that the RC considers is a windward leeward course, you will surely be hearing boats contacting each other. When a skipper has his boat beat up enough, I suspect that he will find another hobby.

Rule 13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern shall keep clear.

Rule 14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury.

Rule 15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat's actions.

Rule 16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
16.2 In addition, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear.

Rule 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

Tom

[marcsmith]

this isn't nascar.. rubin' isn't racin'

[greerdr]

Marc:thanks for asking the very hard rules questions.
Tom:thanks for a very formal and always accurate rules interpretation.
I'll continue to suggest we COMMUNICATE better.
The more rewarding win is when we sailed smarter upwind than our opponent:we found clear air,anticipated the shift,dodged the poorer sailor or even got lucky(which happens a lot for me).
I am worried we become a whole fleet of "Sea Lawyers" who rely on our knowledge of rules to intimidate others at mark roundings.
I'd rather that we, as a (ROW) boat with rights, suggest in a gentlemanly way we round together without fouls to that other skipper.

[tag1945]

Mark, Doc

If you think the rules are difficult, wait til you see the new definition of Mark-Room! I am working on a paper to explain the new Mark-Room definition. One of the items that the rules writers were concerned with is the fairness in some situations around the mark. Dick Rose, IASF rules committee, wrote an explanation of the new Mark-Room definition and you can read it at the following web site:

http://www.sailingworld.com/experts/important-rule-changes-mark-room

I will be trying to cover all the changes over the next couple of months. Appendix E has major changes! I believe the new Mark-Room definition is probably the biggest change in the new rules.

Rule 2: Fair Sailing
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat's series score.

At one time this was the most important rule.

Tom

[marcsmith]

easy questions and easy answers are for sissies...

Rc: Communication is key... I do agree and anything one can do to make mark roundings (heck racing in general) less contentious is a bonus.

But I don't feel that knowing the rules is any more intimidating than knowing how to tune a boat.

using the rules to educate someone on whether or not they are allowed to occupy a particular place on the race course is a win-win. some people don't care about the racing rules. Some folks do care and yearn to learn.

Every time I sail I do my best to sail within the rules. some times I get schooled. I'm not upset with the other skipper, Quite the contrary, I'm more upset with myself for putting my boat in a situation that I could not control IE being ROW boat. I hope not to get schooled too much this weekend..

I do not enjoy "dropping the boom" on another boat, it just makes people upset... But if a skipper puts his bow where is doesn't belong after being educated about the transgression in a prior instance. I can only hope that he ducks his head as the booms comes around...

We have one guy at our club who enjoys sailing, going on 2-3 years now, but has no desire to really learn the rules so when he chooses to race it is often very tense when you have interactions with him. When you get near him and you are ROW boat there is a lot of communication, and when he is ROW boat there is still communication such that he knows your intentions (ie I'm going behind you, I'm going to tack) so there are fewer instances of contact.

Tom: I got that issue a couple weeks ago very good explanation, and I look forward to future issues and lester gilbert also does a great explanation of the new rules http://onemetre.net/Race/RRS2013/2013AppE.htm in regard to appendix E

ruled e4.2b and e4.3.b are also interesting changes...

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... 380%5D.pdf is the hows and whys of the changes that were made

my 2013 rules books arrived on monday...one in the sail tool box, and one at work...

[Columbia]

I agree with most of what has been posted. Ever since I started to sail I noticed there is always disagreements and then arguments in this sport. What can you expect when the rules are so complicated. Here are my questions. 1. Do we need to use the RRS for big boats to the RC boats? 2. Can simpler rules be made that might be more applicable to our boats?

[tag1945]

Joe

1. Do we need to use the RRS for big boats to the RC boats?

1. The answer is yes. The parts of the RRS that apply to RC boats are needed to protect our boats just like the same rules are for safety of sailors and protection to big boats. The Sailing Instructions are our vehicle to change or apply a local rule to make our sailing even better. We have one very different problem that is the root of most of the problems you probably see and that is regatta management. Setting up course for the best visibility for the skippers to see not only their boat, but all the boats around her! If the only course used is a windward leeward course, you will not always be able to ensure that visibility. Set up your course based on your pond, your wind, and visibility for your skippers. The more the skippers can see, the less problems you have.


2. Can simpler rules be made that might be more applicable to our boats?

2. I don't know if you are familiar with the RRS but they have appendixes for different types of sailing. RC boats are covered in Appendix E to the RRS and modify and delete many of the rules you might think do not apply to RC boats. We have to go through the same learning process as big boat sailors every 4 years and Appendix E is also updated as needed. This forum is a good place to ask a Rule question and hopefully get a answer that you can understand. When you look at the rules, Part 2, Section A only covers 4 situations and if you follow them, you should be able to stay out of trouble. Section B,C, &D mostly apply to the Right of Way boat and limit what that boat can do. The burdened boat, just must keep clear!

If you have an active club, discuss the rules after one of your sailing afternoon and if you need another opinion, post your question here and it should get answered pretty quickly.

[Columbia]

So your answer is no to both questions. I see there is no room for suggestions.

[bigfoot55]

Joe- 'Way back when', we're talking 1970's, we did have separate rules, somewhat simplified. That was changed and the full rules were adopted and RAdio Sailing became a part of the ISF, with appendix E.
The answer is yes, current rules use the 'big boat' rule book. To your second question, again the answer is yes, if you can get enough people who wish to do so.

And you can do anything you want in a non AMYA sanctioned day on the pond if your club wishes to do so. There are clubs that do not use the rules.

Some of us might like a simpler set of rules, but I do not know anyone that wants to take on the project.

[greerdr]

Joe,
I think Tom covered your questions well.
An operative phrase he used,and should be noted well,is that YOU and YOUR pond can do anything you want.
I suggest if you want to sail with others outside your pond; knowledge of the rules is imperative.
We (completive skippers) all strive to know them,and adhere to them.Less collisions and such.Seems to keep the volume lower lake-side.
Come sail with us- we will be as kind and instructive as the rules allow.

[marcsmith]

http://www.gslyc.org/PDF/SIMPLIFIED%20R ... INNERS.pdf

http://www.fpyc.ca/ssrr2.pdf

[Columbia]

Mr. Greer, I think you are way off with your thought. I in no way suggested rules should be changed nor excluded for my benefit. I always sail with the same rules that apply to the rest of the fleet. I dont have my own pond. I did sail way back when the rules were on the simpler side but I have been away from competition for quite some time. I have re read the rules and of course there are changes and additions.
I certainly did not try to start trouble here.