Leeward mark

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Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:30 pm

Had an issue today...

no graphic

Leeward mark. Boat 1 is on port tack, Boat 2 is on Starboard

boats on oppostite tack heading toward the leeward mark. boat 1 Blue on port tack in side the zone Position 1 boat 2 red on startboard tack out side the zone position 1. boat 2 is able to accelerate on a puff inside of boat 1 at position 2 prior to the mark and begin rounding the mark at position 3.. so the question is Does being on starboard tack overrule the zone Boat 1 protested boat 2
multiple rules applies #10, and #18
rule 10 is pretty cut and dry...
10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

but we must also consider Rule 18 so first we look at when rule 18 is turned off. in this case rule 18 is ON

18 MARK-ROOM
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies

so now we need to look at 18.2

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to markroom passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b)
ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been
unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.

SO rule 18.2b the important part is If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room. the question is does Starboard tack overrule port tack, irregardless of the zone...
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby tag1945 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:30 pm

Mark

Good Question!

In your senerio, you did not say if at position 1 if Red was overlapped with Blue. In your graphic it appears that they are not overlapped at position 1 and Blue has entered the zone clear ahead of Red. Remember that it is a perpendicular line across the stern of Blue to determine if there is an overlap. I will assume that there was no overlap at position 1!

Red at position 1 is on Starboard tack, and Blue is on Port tack, Rule 10 applies. From here you look for limitations to the Red's Right of Way status.
At position 1 Rule 10 requires Blue to keep clear of Red.

Now we check for any limitations to the Right of Way Red boat.

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply:
Since none of the conditions in Rule 18.2 (a), (b), (c) or (d) apply, Rule 18 is turned on!

You are correct that the next item you look at is Rule 18.2

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b)
ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been
unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it


Rule 18.2 (a), is usually the last possibility.

Since the overlap began after Blue enter the zone clear ahead of Red,
Rule 18.2 (b) second sentence requires Red to continue to provide Mark-Room to Blue, even though Red is now the Right of Way boat.

Mark-Room: Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

As you can see from the definition of Mark-Room, Blue must be allowed to sail to the mark and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark.

This means that Red has made a tactical error by establishing an inside overlap after Blue entered the zone. In your graphic, Red is left little choice but to sail below the mark so Blue can sail to the mark as provided by the Mark-Room and while at the mark, sail her proper course, which she is entitled......

SO rule 18.2b the important part is If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room. the question is does Starboard tack overrule port tack, irregardless of the zone...


To answer you question, The Red ROW boat is limited in this situation by Rule 18.2b and the definition of Mark-Room. Red remains the ROW boat, but must not interfere
Blue sailing to the mark and while at the mark, sailing her proper course. Blue's Mark-Room is turned off as she leaves the zone or if she tacks while in the zone Rule 18.2c.

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Re: Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:27 pm

Tom,

thanks

correct there was NO overlap upon entering the zone, only after in the zone..

I'll have to post another question about tacking too close... and what constitutes "too close" but need to do the diagram first...
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby greerdr » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:45 pm

This is a VERY common occurrence in RC sailing.
We have trouble with the 4 boat lengths. Nobody wants to adhere-but we must.
Boats who try to sail fairly,giving that inside boat room, are often beaten by boats from clearly astern who scoot in to the gap created by following the rules.
Often the inside boat is sailing against the close boat and fails to head-up to prevent the "usurpers"-boats who have no right inside but took what was open and sailed inside and away.
If we ALL adhered to the rules we would hear much less noise on the course and MOST of us would enjoy it more.
Tom;
Your rules interpretation is invaluable,thank you.
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:52 am

RC I'll call the boat an opportunist :)
here is a diagram

yellow and blue are overlapped at position 1 with grey tailgating blue
position 2 yellow starts to swing wide to give blue room and blue begins to pass yellow. with grey close behind. Yellow hails gray "no overlap"

Position 3 blue turns and round the mark, Yellow has no option but to stay clear of Blue and has to go wide. Yellow protests Grey grey responds that yellow did not have to alter course to avoid grey.


The key here IMO is that yellow was unable to "close" the door on grey as a result of the overlap with Blue. IF at position three, yellow was able to harden up and clear blues transom She could have forced Grey up into the mark. Claiming her intention was to follow blue and she was not able since grey was in the way.
Basically yellow got freighttrained. in first place entering the zone and essential third leaving...
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby greerdr » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:31 pm

Grey WAS clear astern at the circle and must, from then on, give ahead boats room.I (as grey)would bear away before the mark (and throttle down) to not cause problems at this mark.I get the argument about "opportunity" but if we want to sail as gentlepeople (we have 2 great women sailing 12's nationally) we should respect that 4 length rule.I would be much prouder reaching the next mark 1st by out tacking my opponent than by a "opportunist" move when boats ahead are adhering to rules in an honorable fashion.
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:10 pm

I agree that Grey has No rights to inside of yellow...but yellow has put himself in a position to be unable to deny those rights or to be other wise hindered by grey being somplace he should not be....

if i was on the PC.. I would toss out the protest...under the fact that yellow did not have to alter course or other wise avoid grey since she was being held out by Blue. as the diagram is drawn.

Now...
If yellow had space to harden up behind blue and Yellow claimed that Grey prevented Yellow from doing so as a result of Grey's presence. A presence which Grey did not have rights to be. If I was the PC in that situation, then I would rule in Yellows Favor...

Lets assume for a moment that Yellow was able to clear Blue at position three and as yellow attempts to harden up yellow protests grey, and in hardening up grey "twitches" and hits the mark (marks are poison) Grey will owe a 360 to yellow, and grey will also owe a 360 to the course for hitting the mark. since these are two separate events, grey now has a 720 owed...Correct?


Part of racing is tactics. yellow has unfortunately put herself in a poor tactical position. With one design classes boat speed is often, not always, but often very very close, and races are often won or lost on: one bad tack, one bad shift, one poor decision. In this case yes grey is being an opportunist but with racing don't you sometimes have to take advantage of another skippers mistakes???... in my second "what if" Grey would have been screwed... and yellow could have even forced grey above the mark and made things really really nasty for grey...

There is always a potential "risk/reward" in this situation as drawn for grey, the risk was minimal and the reward is a bump in position...no more "opportunistic" than staying with a tack a bit longer than your fellow skipper who tacks away and you benefit from a shift... Risk/reward.....
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby greerdr » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:17 pm

I do not disagree that yellow left an "open door" in your picture.I'd(as yellow) have hardened up on Blues hip and get hit HARD by grey who should not be there.
Again,I submit this happens all the time and it is just plain wrong!
To say this is like upwind tactics is fallacious.
This inside move is the most common cause (well maybe 2nd after port tackers at top mark) of bad feelings in our fleet racing.
I want us to be friends and enjoy each other.
If some of us feel taking advantage of others rigorous adherence to rules & generous behavior is the best way to win ;it will get ever more contentious on the pond.
I could sail that way-ask my peers if I ever do.
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:57 pm

RC

Tactics are tactics, Up wind, down wind starting line, mark roundings... I agree that mark rounding are the cause of most "discussions" It is the point on the course in which ALL boats must converge. and generally one boats error can cause a lot of grief for others. I have learned that getting around the mark clean.....is of paramount importance... bouncing off the mark or other boats. is not the fast way a round the course. At our course, all Marks are poison. by having marks poison, makes a big difference with keeping the "bargers" at bay.

yellow made a mistake. the way its drawn I don't think yellow could have done much, Maybe early on, if yellow had sheeted in the main to dump speed and then tried to follow blue. grey would've had no option to keep clear...


is grey taking advantage of yellows unfortunate position. Yes. And as drawn yellow can be unhappy about what grey is doing, but IMO no rules were violated..
18b applies
If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room.This applies to Yellow and Blue
If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.This applies to yellow and grey and grey and blue
Did grey fail to give yellow room? no... yellow was outside of blue.
Was yellow in any way inhibited by greys actions? no yellow had no play for grey as a result of being outside of blue.
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby greerdr » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:22 am

I'll yield to other skippers opinions.
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby tag1945 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:41 am

Mark, Bob

I will use the graphic to make the call.

At position 1, Yellow was overlapped with blue when yellow reached the zone. Rule 18.2b applied and becaused blue was the inside overlapped boat, yellow must provide Mark-Room for blue. Since we do not know hoe the overlap between yellow and blue began, I will assume that blue had overlapped yellow within two boat lengths and is now limited by Rule 17, not to sail above her proper course. Blue's entitlement is only to sail to the mark and while at the mark, to sail her proper course until both boats leave the zone or one of them tacks. Gray is clear astern of both yellow and blue and Rule 12 requires her to keep clear of both yellow and blue. Since gray is clear astern of yellow and blue at the time yellow and blue have reached the zone, the second sentence of rule 18.2b requires her to provide Mark-Room to both yellow and blue. All three boats are on starboard tack.

Rule 18.2(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.

At position 2, Blue is still overlapped to leeward and the ROW boat over yellow with the limitation not sail above her proper course. Yellow is providing blue Mark-Room to sail to the mark as required. Gray is still clear astern of both yellow and blue. All boats are on starboard tack.

Mark-Room - Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

At position 3, all three boats have gybed onto port tack and blue is rounding the mark, yellow now the ROW boat and is still providing mark-room to blue, gray is still clear astern and still providing mark-room to yellow to sail to the mark. because yellow still overlapped with blue and is forced to sail wide of the mark to provide mark-room to blue, yellow has left inside space for gray to sail inside of her in an attempt to round the mark ahead of yellow. Up until this point, gray has not interfered with yellow's ability to sail to the mark as provided by mark-room.

At position 4, blue had rounded the mark and is now clear ahead of yellow on a course to the next mark. Yellow is the ROW boat over gray and is now overlapped with gray. Yellow is still entitled to the second part of mark-room which allows her to sail her proper course while at the mark. Since yellow had to sail wide to the mark, she allowed gray to gamble and sail inside of her but gray did not have the rights to the room, but took advantage of the room. If gray was not in the situation, yellow would have sailed a course very similar to blue to the next mark. Yellow obtained the ROW over gray as the leeward boat after they gybed, yellow now has full luffing rights over gray. After yellow became clear astern of blue, she could start luffing gray in an attempt to block her, Rule 11. As long as yellow provides room and opportunity to gray to keep clear, Rule 16, she can luff up to head to wind. Because gray did not have rights to mark-room, section A rules applied and Rule 11 requires her to keep clear of yellow. The graphic shows yellow, after blue was clear ahead, sailing a course very similar to blue and gray and is still keeping clear of yellow. From the point when yellow was no longer overlapped with blue, yellow original entitlement to mark-room was to sail her proper course while at the mark, but this entitlement does not require her to sail that course. Yellow now has full luffing rights over gray and can luff gray as she pleases in an attempt to block her as they pass the mark.

Yellow's protest would be dismissed. Yellow is correct that gray does not have any rights to do this, but if the room is available, gray can as long as she provides mark-room to yellow. Yellow's requirement to provide mark-room to blue created the room for gray and she took advantage of the room. From the graphic, it appears that gray has provide mark-room and has keep clear as she rounded the mark.

Very risky move for gray, but in this graphic, she pulled it off!
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:00 am

tom.

the only thing yellow could have done is at position 4 to hopefully only loose one spot would have been to tack and/or luff and therefore force grey to tack. Not a hateful decision, but one that would be tactically strong over grey. Ie getting grey to move... But it would eventually put yellow on Port tack,if she decided to tack, the next time she meets Blue if blue did not cover Yellows tack. the problem with tacking at 4 is that after just rounding the mark they are going slow. and to drop drop a tack in the mix, blue will only extend her lead... leaving Yellow and grey to fight over 2nd place...
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby greerdr » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:20 pm

I will obviously get much more aggressive in this situation;corinthian sailing be gone:we are going for the BIG bucks!
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby marcsmith » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:37 pm

bragging rights and bowling trophies.... pretty much what the folks in America's cup are sailing for... Albeit slightly smaller trophies, and lack of sponsorship...But I have more boats than Oracle :)

RC...I'm not seeing the jump from racing tactics to Corinthian spirit...

IF someone leaves a big enough space at the starting line, or someone is not sailing as has high as they should be, and you are able to come in under them and force them to sail higher or force them over early.... is that "bad sportsmanship" or is that racing within the rules? and yes you can be a gentleperson in both situations or you can be an D#$%head. And the person being a d-head can be the person who is in the wrong, and not wanting to be forced up, or forced over...

in this situation, was grey being "un Corinthian"? I don't think so. IN fact, with yellow protesting grey I'd venture to say that yellow was being un Corinthian and trying to bully grey into doing a 360 for a rule that was NOT broken...


And we see people being bullied around the course especially the new folks who don't quite understand the rules/tactics very well...

I guess is what I'm getting at , where is line between being "Corinthian" and racing within the rules, and being the doormat and letting others bully you around the course.
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Re: Leeward mark

Postby greerdr » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:06 pm

I was really going to let this go(and I probably should) but I still believe we could sail in a way that does not anger people who are sailing in a more Corinthian manner than those who feel compelled to exploit anything for a place.
Your examples of heading up at start or out-pointing another on an upwind leg are very different than the taking advantage at the bottom mark do't you think?
Or is all guts and glory and devil take the hindmost.
I want to leave the pond thinking my mates enjoyed sailing with me,knew I'd never hit them(as grey will surely do to yellow) and have a fun time.
Lots of us know the rules pretty well,and we try to gently help those who do not know them as well gain a better understanding(Tom Germer really goes above and beyond).We thank him.
But I'll stand by my 1st problem with your yellow/grey scene-grey took advantage of a situation that occurs often in big regattas and if yellow heads up-grey collides and a huge argument ensues.My bottom line-grey had NO rights entering the circle and MUST thereafter KEEP clear until yellow clears or tacks.
By the way this is a VERY hot button on S1M site where skippers are upset by the "sea lawyer" attitude of many fleets.
I'd hope we ,"the best informed fleet"-thanks Ric- can do better.
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