Leeward Mark Rounding Question

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Leeward Mark Rounding Question

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:13 am

Question...

Two boats running down to the leeward mark. Neither have arrived at the zone yet and both are on port tack. Boat A which is inside of boat B is ahead but overlapped with B. B is crowding A and forcing A to steer higher to keep clear as they near the zone. A enters the zone first and becomes the ROW boat with B just outside. A hails B and advises B that she will be coming out in order to make a wide entry and a tight exit of the mark. B protests against the move saying that is not required to give that much room at a mark rounding. Note: A wishes to round the mark with a wide entry and a tight exit to defend further attack from B who is now in a position to force A into a tight entry and a wide exit giving B the advantage and position when they exit the rounding.

Based on the scenario above and in the rules, A is entitled to room to perform a "Seaman Like" Rounding and not a "Tactical" rounding. The question then becomes... what is the difference?
Last edited by Chuck Luscomb on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leeward Mark Rounding Question

Postby tag1945 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:18 pm

While boat A and B were sailing downwind overlapped on Port tack, Rule 11 requires the windward boat to keep clear of the leeward boat. Remember, when sailing downwind, a boats leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. B's mainsail lies on the port side making the port side of B Leeward and starboard side her windward side. A's mainsail lies on the port side and that makes her the windward boat.

If B had overlapped on A from clear astern and within 2 boat lengths. B, as the ROW boat, would be restricted to not sail above her proper course, Rule 17.

A reached the zone just ahead of B who was still overlapped to leeward and still the ROW boat.
Because the boats are overlapped at the zone, Rule 18 is turned on and Rule 18.2b requires B to provide Mark-Room to A. Mark-Room is the Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark.

In this situation A attempted to force B to provide additional room so A could make a Tactical rounding to block B. Mark-Room only provided enough room for A to sail to the Mark, which means to a point at the mark where she can round the mark on her Proper Course (Seaman Like rounding), not directly at the mark. Because A is not the ROW boat, she cannot make a wide Tactical rounding to block B.

Note:
Seaman Like rounding is a rounding that you would make in the absence of other boats to finish
the course as quickly as possible.

Tactical Rounding is when the inside ROW boat can sail out wide at the Mark and exit close to block a competitor. This can happen when the inside boat is the ROW boat and Rule 17 does not apply to that boat. If the inside ROW boat must Gybe to round the Mark, Rule 18.4 limits, require her to no sail farther past the Mark to sail her proper course.

The difference between the two Mark roundings above are hard to put an actual distance from the mark when you are required to make a Seaman Like rounding.

If you are the ROW outside boat, and you believe the inside boat is sailing wide for tactical reasons, you should protest the inside boat. If you watch boats making the rounding in the early heats, you will get a feel for how much room is needed for a boat to make a rounding without other overlapped boats. That is information the RC will be watching also.

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Re: Leeward Mark Rounding Question

Postby Kaluskap » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:28 pm

Chuckles--this is an interesting one. Having read Tom's explanation, the RRS and several other online interpretations, I'll put forth the "interpretation" that--for OUR TYPICAL LEEWARD MARK followed by direct UPWIND leg course configuration--there is actually "never" allowance for a tactical rounding. Having thrown that grenade out there, here's my thinking (and the fact that the RRS allows such interpretations indicates a long way to go on their part in constructing proper rules). I'll refer to rule #s only when the rule is not obvious.

First, my key assumptions here:
*In all cases your A and B boat positions (overlapped, A inside) apply
*This is a typical rounding, leaving mark to port
*In all cases, the boats will therefor EXIT the rounding on PORT tack (going into an upwind leg). Simple physics. This ignores the fact that they may immediately tack onto starboard...but that is AFTER the rounding.
*We use the offered definition of "proper course" which assumes course behavior ..."in the absence of the other boats referred to..." SO...my key assumption here is that you ONLY desire to perform the tactical rounding BECAUSE of the other boats and without the other boats in or near "the circle" you would sail directly to and around the mark ("seamanlike rounding"). If you don't buy this assumption, then my below cases fall apart (well...some of them...you'll see why).
*As noted above, this is a classic leeward mark, not, say a mid-leg downwind mark requiring an easy rounding, but a mark that has us going from a run to a beat, which is your envisioned case, right?

So, for the cases that drive my analysis, it all comes down to who's the right of way (ROW) boat vs the give-room (GR) boat, and what tack each is on approaching our typical leeward mark.
*Case 1) your case: BOTH on PORT tack, A inside. Given the overlap, B is both the ROW and the GR boat. He gives room to A to round, but A must keep clear of B. No allowance required therefore of B to allow A to bear down for a tactical rounding. This is likely the EASIEST case.
*Case 2) Approaching on different tacks, A on STBD, B on PORT. A is now ROW boat, B is GR. You'd think boat A can do as he pleases, but the RRS makes an exception when a boat has to gybe at the mark (RRS18.4). In this case the boat A is required to sail proper course until the gybe is complete. Proper course under my assumption is a seamanlike rounding, NOT a tactical rounding. Again, no tactical rounding allowance required.
*Case 3) BOTH on STBD tack: Same as Case 2. A is ROW, B is GR. A has to gybe. No allowance for tactical rounding under 18.4, again.
*Case 4) Approaching on different tacks, A on PORT, B on STBD: Same situation as A. B is both the ROW and the GR boat. B must give room, but A must keep clear (B is STBD), and since A must keep clear there is no allowance for A to bear down into B for the "tactical" rounding.

So...four options in this situation, no tactical rounding allowed. Again--and this is the beauty of interpretation--if Chuck can say with a straight face that his "proper course" is ALWAYS an "enter wide, exit close" rounding--even WITHOUT the other boats in proximity, he has an argument for a tactical rounding but ONLY in cases 2 and 3 where A is the ROW boat. In many writeups I've seen that interpretation--that if the inside boat is ROW boat, then he can do the tactical rounding. However, I think the spirit of the definitions of "proper course" and "mark room" ("...to sail TO the mark, and then to sail proper course while AT the mark") are that the inside boats sails directly to, and then around, the mark.

Now...if we want to analyze the meanings of "TO" and "AT", thats a different thread. And I'm out of wind...though simple in principle, this took way too many words.

So...what did I miss? Please chime in, those of you who have real experience interpreting the RRS....thanks! This is one that comes up all the time and insight is appreciated.

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Re: Leeward Mark Rounding Question

Postby tag1945 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:22 am

Bruce

Case 75 is a good example of this situation:
A Case is an Official Interpretation, not an opinion.

Have a read. This example also has a graphic to reinforce it.

http://game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case75.htm

Good write up!

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Re: Leeward Mark Rounding Question

Postby Kaluskap » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:52 am

Tom:

Thanks for the link. Having an "official" interpretation is helpful. If I were to summarize, then, it seems that:

1) For Chucks case (both on port), the inside boat still does NOT have the ability to bear down on the outside boat in order to do a tactical rounding. The inside boat is not the ROW boat.
2) However, if that inside boat IS the ROW boat, then the interpretation of "proper course" DOES allow that inside boat to round tactically. Example: Opposite tacks with Boat A on STBD, or Same tack, both on STBD (inside boat thereby leeward boat). So if Chuck were on the other tack, even though he still needed to Gybe, he could run a wider course to the mark.

This all presumes other rules adhered to re: room to keep clear, etc.

Correct?

If so, this is a very interesting ruling as is sets precedent for what "proper course" means, which in effect is "whatever that skipper thinks is proper in order to finish fastest", even taking the boat(s) involved most directly in the action out of the picture.

Thanks.

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Re: Leeward Mark Rounding Question

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:07 pm

Bruce,

The reason for the question was just that. To determine the correct interpretation of what a Seaman Like Rounding might be. I am certain that regardless of how you define it, each skipper in this case, both of A and of B will have different views in the split second allowed to come up with one while rounding the mark.

Thanks for both your time and detail in your responses.

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