Mark rounding

The Racing Rules prescribe certain things. It's wise to know them, at least the basics. This area discusses the finer points of the racing rules for sailing fast.

Moderators: Capt. Flak, bigfoot55, Chuck Luscomb

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:09 pm

Hey baron...

nice to sail with you this past weekend... At least you don't have to hear us yelling :) which was surprising since we did not argue this weekend. 24 races, and no protest room, and very few protests on the water...a lot of fairly clean sailing...

always fun to sail with the rules
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:45 am

Mark

I should also mention that the term "Proper Course", "A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal" is not a rule, it is a definition. The RRS does not have a rule that requires you to sail a "Proper Course". Rule 17 requires a boat to not sail above her proper course. Other rules require the other boat to provide room for you to sail your proper course, but it does not requires the boat, entitled to that room, to actually sail that course. Green had no obligation to sail her proper course. Green could have continued on her starboard tack under the mark and if Red did not stay clear and interfered with Green, Red would have fouled Green, Rule 11.
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:58 am

Tom,

I know the term"proper course" is not a rule, but the term Proper course is is mentioned in Rule 17 and therefore the definition does apply... imo (which is worth the paper) if green had continued on close hauled beyond the mark. she is sailing above her proper course as defined....Since the fastest way to finish would have been been to gybe (after being on the wrong side of the mark) sail on port tack close hauled until she is able to lay the mark on Stbd tack, and the properly round the mark.

The key would be, which was not established: How did the two boats establish overlap???? which means you'd have to go back to well before the zone to determine who overlapped who... and if the skippers came to the protest room. and had no recollection about of how over lap occurred. then no harm no foul...we don't have enough info...

the way I read 17- If red become overlapped by green, IE green traveling faster... then green cannot sail above her proper course. If the overlap is established by red going faster, then green has no "proper course"

What am I missing???
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:26 pm

Mark

If the committee established that Green did establish an overlap within two of her hull lengths to leeward, of a boat on the same tack, Rule 17 is in effect. Green boat would not be able to sail above her Proper Course.

Rule 17 does not tell Green boat that she must sail a Proper Course or that she cannot sail below her Proper Course. As long as Red and Green remain overlapped, within 2 boat lengths, Green's only limitation is not to sail above her proper course. As your graphic noted that Green Gybed as soon as she could, to properly round the mark. As Green changed tack, when she Gybed, Rule 17 would no longer applied as they are no longer on the same tack. Since Red did not have an entitlement to Mark-Room, the only rules that applied to Red and Green, while they were on the same tack, was Rule 11 and Rule 18.2b and possibly Rule 17. If Green and Red remained within 2 boat lengths and overlapped as your graphic showed, Green has not sailed above her proper course, but only responded to the wind shift that created a new proper course for Green. Green's original 'Proper Course" would have been to sail around the Mark, leaving it to Port, had the wind not shifted. Rule 17 does not restrict Green from sailing below her "Proper Course". At position 5, Green did not sail above her proper course, and Red was required by Rule 11 to keep clear of Green. After Green's Gybe to Port tack, Rule 18 no longer applied, Rule 17 would be turned off, if it applied, and the only rule that applied would be Rule 10.

The old Rule 17 use to have 2 parts where the 2nd part did restrict the boat that was clear ahead from sailing below her Proper Course to prevent the clear astern boat from obtaining an overlap to leeward. Rule 17 no longer has that restriction and the clear ahead boat can sail below her Proper Course to block the other boat until the clear astern boat has established an overlap to leeward from clear astern on the same tack.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

Every Boat that is racing has a "Proper Course". You must remember that there are no rules that tell a boat that they must sail that "Proper Course". The "Proper Course" for any boat can change for any number of reasons. As boats approach other boats, their "Proper Course" will change. Obstructions can alter the "Proper Course" for a boat.
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:33 pm

proper course.-A course that a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

Let say for a moment that Green was sailing a timed race, with no other boats on the course...

once green missed the mark, based on this definition, which is not a rule, I know.... IMO Greens proper course is to sail and finish as soon as possible, which means gybing to port and rounding the mark and not sailing above THAT course. Green Line. Greens proper course to finish as soon as possible is NOT to continue on close hauled beyond the mark. Red line in Drawing labeld green Green

So absent other boats, this is the course (IMO) green cannot sail above, such that she can finish as soon as possible.

This is like an exit ramp on the highway. green can either stay straight and wait until the next exit which will take longer, or get off at the earliest opportunity to so she can finish faster.
green.jpg
green.jpg (25.12 KiB) Viewed 10155 times




now lets over lay red boat. GREENRED drawing

1. Green has established overlap on Red from astern prior to entering the zone. Rule 17, is ON green cannot sail above proper course. and Rule 18.2a is ON red must allow room
2. Red begins to harden and is now above the lay line to allow room for Green to round the mark. Green is now on the lay line
3. we have a wind shift.. Green is now head to wind and still heading towards the mark. red being above old lay line is now on the new lay line and can make the mark by following the shift. Green does not have enough space to tack AND clear red's stern. Red is close hauled 17 is still on, and at this point does 18.2e turn on. Red is now unable to give mark room as a result of the shift and therefore does not have to give it...
4. Red begins her mark rounding, and green begins to fall off. 17 is still on
5. Red is now exiting the mark , and green is close hauled. 17 is on and Rule 11 is now on as the boats are still overlapped and on the same tack, 18.1C is ON which means rule 18 is OFF sine one boat is leaving a mark, and one boat could be construed as approaching the mark.

6. Green hails red "windward boat keep clear Rule 11" red continues down wind. Red replies "Sail your proper course Rule 17" Red hardens up and Protest Green R under rule 17. Green gybes away and protest red under rule 11.

Red Feels that green's proper course is to gybe to port and properly round the mark such that she can finish in the shortest possible time. since overlap was established by green from astern prior to entering the zone and that green CANNOT sail above that proper course which would have her finish in the shortest amount of time. Continuing on beyond the mark is contrary to finishing in the shortest time...

Green feels that red needs to harden up and windward boat MUST keep clear
greenred.jpg
greenred.jpg (21.92 KiB) Viewed 10155 times

AS RC
I feel that Green would be penalized since 17 is still ON her proper course is to finish as soon as possible which means gybing back to the mark and rounding the mark properly and not sailing above That course as the rule states
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:39 pm

now if red had obtained the overlap on green prior to entering the zone. red is windward green is leeward. rule 17 DOES NOT ever turn on...only rule 18 and rule 11 would apply.... in which case red would be penalized as green is always leeward boat...and has ROW

heck of s sticky wicket.. if I am reading the rules and definition properly.
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:05 pm

1. Rule 17 is on as you say, so is Rule 11 on. Red must provide Mark-Room for Green, Rule 18.2b. Green cannot sail above her proper Course. 18.2a can apply only if 18.2b does not apply.

2. Red does the correct thing by providing the Mark-Room for Green.

3. 18.2e does not protect Red from providing Mark-Room for Green. Until Green decides that she cannot make the mark and bears off to sail under the mark, Red must provide Mark-Room. Red is the outside windward boat and must provide Mark-Room, even if she must pass head to wind to do it.

4. As Green pass under the mark, Green and Red are still on the same tack and overlapped within two boat lengths. Rule 17 is still on.

5. Rule 11 is still on and Rule 17 is still on. In your graphic, Green must gybe to return to round the mark. If you are suggesting that Green sailed to far pass the mark, you should change the graphic. Green started her gybe while at the mark which is her proper course. Green never sailed above her proper course. If there was no wind shift, Green's proper course would have been to pass the mark leaving it to port.
Red must keep clear of Green Rule 11, until Green is onto Port tact, then Green must keep clear of Red, Rule 10, and Rule 18 is turned off.
Remember to apply Section A Rules first. Rule 18.2b no longer applied as Red did provide Mark-Room and Green was not able to use it. Section A rules still apply!

I believe you have misread Rule 18c. Rule 18 does not apply if Rule 18c
situation exists. Section A rules do apply!

6. Green is correct to hail for Red to keep clear, Rule 11. Red's hail for Green to "sail your proper course" is not a rule. There is no rule that requires a boat to sail her proper course! Rule 17 only limited Green to not sail ABOVE her proper course. A proper course changes all the time! Green's reaction to the wind shift is entirely correct. Greens attempt to gybe and round the mark is entirely correct. Your graphic did not show Green sailing pass the mark, but started her gybe to round the mark while she was at the mark, not pass the mark. If Red did not keep clear until Green arrived on a port tack, Red would receive a penalty.


I don't see the actions of Green as sailing above her Proper Course. Green's proper course was, as soon as she could after the wind shift prevented her from passing the mark on the correct side, sail the fastest course to return and round the mark correctly. Had Green sailed past the mark before starting her return, you might have a case. Your graphic clearly shows Green while at the mark, starting to gybe to return and pass the mark on the correct side. Red must keep clear Rule 11.

If it was Red that obtained the overlap to windward of Green, then Rule 17 would not apply and only Rule 11 would apply and Green would have full luffing rights with limitations of Rule 16.
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:27 pm

I agree with that tom......I thought you had originally stated that green could continue on past the mark and take red into BFE... which she could if 17 was not ON... in my graphic green gybed and red hardened up simultaneously. but both were barking at each other....

soryr for the less than clear diagram...I'm new to it.... :)

Rules are tough as stuff thats gets turned on and off all the time and keeping up with whats right and what not..

Yes proper course is not a rule except as applied by rule 17, and only when the condition of 17 are met based on how overlap has occurred. The sticky wicket with 17 is proving that YOUR proper course is the fastest for you....with no other boats on the course....

I know a lot of folks don't like the rules and the "sea lawyer attitude" but I see it as another challenge to sailing well...

thanks for the help clarifying...

Any idea on upcoming changes for 2013-2016 rule book???
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:17 pm

Mark

Any idea on upcoming changes for 2013-2016 rule book???


I have not seen anything significant as yet. There will be some changes to some of rules in Part 3 - 6. Our Appendix E will have some changes. I don't believe they will be a game changer, but will make them a little more clear and easy to understand. U.S. Sailing is working on a possible Appendix that would allow for faster resolutions of protests. It will probably address handling protests on the water and expedited Hearings following a race. I will probably put something out as soon as I get something concrete!

Have fun
Tom
Tom Germer
AMYA #6571
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:51 pm

ive been been checking ISAF looking for the new rule book...so far no joy...
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Mark rounding

Postby s vernon » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:56 pm

Marc,

The rules are there, but they seem to have really screwed up that website.

bottom of the isaf.org homepage on the left documents and rules link
Scott
User avatar
s vernon
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 9:18 pm
Location:

Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:12 pm

scott, yeah I have 2009-2012 just looking for 2013-2016....
2081 EC12, 1575 EC12 Both For Sale
81 Victoria
181 RG65
1981 Soling 1 Meter
681 IOM under construction
marcsmith
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:30 am

Previous

Return to Sailing with the RRS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron