Mark rounding

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Mark rounding

Postby greerdr » Tue May 29, 2012 8:54 pm

I really hate arguing with Tom Germer about rules BUT:
Does anybody else have problems with a port tacker claiming room at the windward mark in the "News" article?
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Wed May 30, 2012 4:16 am

Bob

I don't know which article you are referring to as the "EC-12 News" had two rule articles. The first one referred to a Leeward mark rounding and the 2nd referred to an offset mark.

If you are referring to the 1st article, you first look at Rule 18.1 to determine if Rule 18 applies.

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply:

(a) Between boats on opposite tacks, on a beat to windward,

Since these boats are NOT on a beat to windward, Rule 18 does apply:

Rule 18.2 (a) "When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies."

The last sentence of the definition of Overlap applies to boats when Rule 18 applies or boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind. Since these boats are sailing more than 90 degrees from the true wind, they are overlapped and Rule 18 does apply.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the after most point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They do not apply to boats on opposite tacks UNLESS rule 18 applies or both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.


I also hate arguing with Tom Germer!
Send me a picture of your new boat and I might forgive you!
I think this question should be in the RRS section.

Tom
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby greerdr » Thu May 31, 2012 8:51 pm

Think I've got it.
At Stowe it(rule 18) will be in play.
Thanks for the tutorial!
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby Bigjake » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:31 am

For our kind of racing, when isn't Rule 18 in play? Even if it is not applicable (18.1), it is still in play. Am I missing something?...

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Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:55 am

Jake

One of the biggest problems we have takes place at the weather mark. When boats are on opposite tacks, Rule 18 does not apply, All of Section A rules do!!!!!!!!!

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does NOT apply (a) between boats on opposite tacks, on a beat to windward,

If we enforce the Section A rules which require the boat, without the right of way, to KEEP CLEAR, you would not see this problem.

KEEP CLEAR
One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat.



Good Question
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby Bigjake » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:04 am

Tom,

I am in full agreement with you and your comments. What I meant was that one, when he's approaching a mark, should always consider Rule 18 and whether or not it applies based on the situation (before just yelling for room at the mark and hope...) That is why it is always in play but not always applicable.

Keep those tutorials coming.

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Re: Mark rounding

Postby Kaluskap » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:13 pm

Confirming my understanding here...

The bottom line, in near-laymans terms, on a typical port-starboard situation at the windward/upwind mark is that--regardless of the proximity to the mark (ie. the 4-boat "circle" being irrelevant), the starboard-tack boat has right of way; the port-tack boat must keep clear; and--most important--the port tack boat is not entitled to Mark Room of any sort but must keep clear. The typical response of the port-tack boat will be a) tack away and take another run at the mark or b) duck the starboard tack boat and get in line on starboard tack with the parade of other boats.

The "charge-in-there-and-hope-the-other-skipper-is-nice-and-lets-me-get-away-with-it" strategy is unfortunately popular but nonetheless not the right answer (unless there is enough room to do so WITHOUT the right of way boat having to alter course to avoid contact...but thats a longer discussion....).

Right?

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Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:45 pm

BW

Even without the "in near layman's terms" you are correct.

Rule 2 Fair Sailing
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat's series score.


Have fun
This can be a great hobby!

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Re: Mark rounding

Postby greerdr » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:52 pm

And it is-just most of us do not have your encylopedic knowledge of the rules at our disposal at the mark with 5 other great skippers surrounding us as we try to get around the mark.
Supports my usual habit of talking a little-bit before we are in the circle.
We all want to do the right thing before "crisis mode"in the circle; but it gets hectic-mostly because boats a bit back often ride untapped air into the mark and suspect that a wide mark rounding was bad helmsmanship;not a skipper trying to avoid fouling the inside-overlapped boat slightly ahead.
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby Kaluskap » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:28 pm

Just had to check. This is one instance that we see in almost every race, particularly at the first rounding. So frequently do I hear "...need room" at that windward mark in a simple Port/Starboard situation that I thought I may have been missing something so wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.

Another way I've heard it explained in that situation is just "take the mark away", and behave as you would...ie. starboard tack has right of way and if close enough to the mark the Port guy just has to keep clear and is entitled to nothing.

Thanks for responses.

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Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:28 am

I have a question... Since we sail small boats and we are on ponds/small bodies bodies of water, often times the wind does shift... sometimes to our advantage and sometimes not...

three boats approaching windward mark. Mark must be left to port. all boats on STBD tack

At position 1 Red must give room to blue, who must give room to green since all boats are overlapped entering the zone.
At position 2. red has hardened up to allow space for blue and green
At position 3. there is a wind shift which means Blue and Green CANNOT make the mark close hauled, Since red had hardened up her course to allow the other boats room, she is now a bit higher on the course can bear away on close hauled and make the proper rounding.
At position 4 Red is close hauled and is extending around the mark, while Blue and Green have stalled and drifting with sail luffing.
At position 5: red has rounded mark still on STBD, Blue is now docked at the mark, Green has fallen off and is now close hauled and protesting Red for the windward Boat to keep clear. Red counters, Sail your proper course to the mark

At position 6: Red altered course to windward to avoid green, and green also turns to leeward in an effort to properly round the mark.

So these are the protests as I see them....No contact was made....

1 Blue is protesting red, 18.2 At position 3 Failure to allow mark room
2 Green is protesting blue 18.2 at position 3 Failure to allow mark room
3 Red is Protesting Blue At position 3 18.2 Blue cannot take Red past head to wind to make the proper mark rounding.
4 Green is Protesting Red, 11 at position 5 Windward/leeward.
5 Red is protesting Green Rule 17 at position 5 Proper Course

If I was on the Protest Committee this is how I would answer, after taking a swig of rum....
1. Protest denied. At position 2 Red hardened up to allow enough space.
2. Protest denied. At position 2 there was enough room, at position 3 a change in the direction of the wind does not create a penalty situation as blue was already head to wind
3. Protest Denied. at no point in time red did need need to go past head to wind.
4/5. Both Protests denied red hardened up to avoid green, and green followed her proper course to round the mark, which in this case was to fall off and gybe to port and pass astern of blue and round the mark.

Only Boat having a penalty, was Blue, for touching the mark.
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby tag1945 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:04 pm

Mark

A lot of detail in your explanation! Good
If I was on the Protest Committee, this is how I would call it:
1. Blue's protest dismissed, Red provided adequate Mark-Room, Rule 18.2b, at position 2 for both Blue and Green.
2. Green's protest dismissed, Both Green and Blue were at head to wind at position 3 and would have to pass head wind to properly round the mark. When the boats pass head to wind, Rule 18.2b is turned on and they would have to keep clear of Red.......
3. Red's protest is dismissed, Red as the outside windward boat is not entitled to Mark-Room. Red was obligated to provide Mark-Room for both Blue and Green Rule 18.2b. Section A rules still apply!!! Red as the windward boat must keep clear of both Blue and Green, Rule 11.
4. Green's Protest dismissed, Red has provided ample room at position 3, for both Blue and Green, and the fact that either Blue or Green could not take the Mark-Room is not a foul on Red. The only way that Blue or Green could pass the Mark on the correct side would be to pass head to wind and Rule 13, would require both blue and green to keep clear of other boats.

5. I would also note that it appears Red may have foul Green at position 5. The fact that Green was forced to sail below the mark because of the wind shift, does not relieve Red from Section A Rules, (Rule 11). Green is still overlapped with Red on the same tack and Red, being the windward boat, must keep clear. Green does not break any rules by sailing under the Mark.

Blue would receive a penalty, Rule 31, for touching the Mark

Red might have receive a penalty, Rule 11,for not keeping clear of Green at position 5. As Green passed under the mark, Red should have not tried to round the mark until Green has gybed to go back and round the mark properly. You did not say that Green protested Red at position 5, so I will assume that Green had enough room to gybe and once Green was on port tack, Green is now required to keep clear of Red, Rule 10. I would need more information on the position 5 and 6. If Red was forced to luff to windward to avoid Green after Green had gybed onto Port, Green might have fouled Red, Rule 10.
Your description of the incident did not mention when and how the overlap between the boats began. For Rule 17 to be in effect, the overlap must begin by a boat overlapping another boat from clear astern. When the wind shifted and Green was forced to sail below the mark, that was his proper course considering the wind shift. Green could not tack and did not want to touch the mark.

Nice Graphic
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby greerdr » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:59 pm

Looks mostly like agreement,and I for one,welcome it.
This is not an uncommon situation at our regattas and hope we all heed the sage advice offered .
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby marcsmith » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:54 pm

I could have gone either way on the red/green protest as well. the fact that green gybed and red headed up gave me enough indication that both did what they needed to do...


if I'm not mistaken, Proper course is the course you would sail with no other boats on the course. and if green had passed the mark on the wrong side, gybing to port and round the mark IS the proper course. Continuing on the beyond the mark to "engage" red is not IMO proper course... Since I did not indicate, Id make the assumption that all boats were overlapped going in to the zone I had not though that far back about how green established its overlap...

I've seen this occur several times.. often with just two boats... when a third boat is clear ahead and heading to offset mark and the leeward boat complains that the windward boat MUST tack as the leeward boat is heading into a broadside with the boat that was clear ahead. because the leeward boat doe not want to gybe... when I get back to work tomorrow I'll do a diagram of that. i wish I had an easier wayto make diagrams... I guess I need to make some patterns in Cadd... I do love the EC newsletter ad the rules discussions... too bad I haven't done much ec12 sailing this year...
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Re: Mark rounding

Postby deafsail » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:01 pm

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