Racing to the Finish

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Racing to the Finish

Postby skip241 » Mon May 07, 2012 10:23 am

To the Rules Guru!

Two boats are close to one another on a starboard tack, sailing on the layline to the finish line.
As the boats near the finish line, the leeward boat starts to point up higher causing the windward boat to point up as well.
Can the leeward boat move up in order to force the windward boat to either hit the finish mark or miss it entirely?
Must the leeward boat give enough room to the windward boat to cross the line without hitting the mark?

Thanks!

Skip Allen :D
Atlanta

P.S. - Just curious GC! Things were happening fast that last race.
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby tag1945 » Mon May 07, 2012 4:19 pm

Skip

The finishing marks are the same as all the other marks except the starting marks. Your answer is in Rule 18. When the two overlapped Starboard tack boats reach the 4 boat zone of the finishing mark, Rule 18.2a requires the outside boat to give the inside boat Mark-Room.

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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby s vernon » Mon May 07, 2012 5:50 pm

And so it would follow that if the boat that causes the other one to hit or go in the other side of the finish mark - if that boat then crosses the finish line, gets protested and either acknowledges the foul or loses the protest, then because she finished ahead of the boat she fouled, she should then also be protested under rule 44.1 and get a DSQ because she gained a significant advantage over the other boat in that race.

Because she crossed the line, she has finished (ahead of the boat she fouled) and cannnot undo that fact.

And I believe that any other boat that beats the boat that was fouled to the finish line will get scored ahead of the boat that got fouled, unless...

Redress? Seems like a pretty easy call to put that boat back in her rightful spot. In our races that probably would take no more than than a verbal request by the boat that was fouled. Redress is rule 62.
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby tag1945 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:07 pm

Scott

I will attempt to explain the scenario in detail:

If a boat did foul another boat at the finishing mark, even if that boat did cross the finish line, and forced the other boat to miss the mark, the boat that fouled the other boat must return to the course side of the line and take the appropriate penalty. The second sentence of Rule 44.2 covers this.
44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.


Your second sentence stated that a boat that had finished cannot undo the finish. No true. If the boat accepted a protest, she must return to the course side of the finish line, do her penalty, and then finish again. If she did not accept the protest and the protest went to a hearing, if the Protest Committee found that the boat did foul another around the finish line, that boat would receive a DSQ.

Your 3rd sentence stated "And I believe that any other boat that beats the boat that was fouled to the finish line will get scored ahead of the boat that got fouled, unless...

You are correct that any boat that does beat the boat that was fouled will be scored ahead of her.

Your 4th sentence stated "Redress? Seems like a pretty easy call to put that boat back in her rightful spot. In our races that probably would take no more than than a verbal request by the boat that was fouled. Redress is rule 62."

62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee's decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat's score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by
(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a party to the hearing;
(b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear;
(c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or
(d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).
(e) radio interference, or
(f) an entanglement or grounding because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear.


Redress is not as simple as you might think. The fouled boat's score must be made worse by several listed items is Rule 62. Having your score made worse by failing to provide room at a mark would not meet the requirements of Rule 62. Most people miss read 62.1d. 62.1d is talking about a Rule 2 violation, not a Part 2 violation!!!!!
Rule 2 is Fair sailing and Sportsmanship, Rule 69.1b is about gross misconduct by a fouling boat. In the Skip's scenario, If the boat that fouled, accepted the penalty and returned to the course side of the finish line, completed her penalty turns, and finished, no further action against her is required. If the fouled boat is unable to return and finish properly prior to the boat that fouled her, that will be her score and she would not qualify for Redress.

I hope this helps you understand these rules.

Tom
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Last edited by tag1945 on Tue May 08, 2012 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby s vernon » Mon May 07, 2012 7:25 pm

Thank you Tom.

So if I fouled someone near the finish line, then crossed the finish line, then acknowledged the foul, I would need to hustle over to the vicinity of the people writing down the finishing scores and get their attention (which they might not appreciate, especially if it was during that wild last race finish) and tell them that I was going to go back to the course side of the line and do a turn and then finish again, so they need to score my second finish, not my first one.

Or?????

And I would want to make sure that I did not do a quick turn and finish before the boat I fouled, since he should protest me under 44.1 and get me DSQed if I did my turn and still finished ahead of him.
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby tag1945 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:29 am

Scott

From Sailingworld.com

Almost every time a boat takes a turns penalty, the distance she loses while getting clear of other boats, and then making the required turns, usually puts her well behind the boat she fouled. That means, probably 95 percent of the time, it is simply obvious that the boat that has completed its turn(s) penalty has lost ground and not gained any advantage by its foul, let alone a significant advantage. Further, the reader asked, in the 5 percent of incidents where the boat that fouled gained an advantage, what would constitute a “significant advantage”?

To answer this question we need to know the meaning of “significant” as it’s used in Rule 44.1(b). The word is not in italics, and it is not used in a nautical sense. Therefore, we won’t find its meaning in the definitions at the back of the rulebook. In my dictionary, “significant” has several meanings, but the one that fits the context of Rule 44.1(b) is “important” or “consequential.”

Here are some examples where, if I were the judge, I’d say that a competitor did gain such an advantage in a race:

• As a result of a foul, the boat that is fouled either capsizes or broaches, and the offending competitor ends up well ahead of her after completing a Two-Turns Penalty.

• As a result of a foul, multiple boats are so entangled that the offender ends up ahead of them after taking a Two-Turns Penalty.

This is a good example of why we should be using Two turn penalties vice One turn penalties!
I have received several opinions on "Significant Advantage" from both ISAF and US Sailing Judges. The above seems to cover your question pretty well and I would also use this method to judge a Rule 44.1b protest.

The second example would be a good reason to request Redress as Entanglement is one of requirements of Rule 62. Remember to add to Rule 62.1 Appendix E 5.5 (e) and (f).

One of the reasons that a boat that has breached a rule of Part 2 is that that boat failed to complete her Two turn penalty as required by Rule 44.2.

21.2 A boat taking a penalty turn shall keep clear of one that is not.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting WELL CLEAR of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.


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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby Capt. Flak » Tue May 08, 2012 9:57 am

I would like to add to the one part of Skip's original question about hitting the finishing mark. If the leeward boat failed to give mark-room to the windward boat and the windward boat hit the mark but still finished on the correct side, she would be exonerated from doing a turn for hitting the mark and the leeward boat that broke rule 18.2 would still have to return to the course side and complete her penalty turn before re-finishing.

So really, only in the case of the leeward boat forcing the windward boat to miss the mark would she have gained any advantage, which would take you back to all of what Tom was saying.

And can I also add that this was one of Tom's best rules discussions. Very well done and clear to understand.
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby skip241 » Tue May 08, 2012 10:35 am

Thanks Tom, Scott and Joe for the rules lesson and comments.

Honestly, I was the guy who hit the mark. However, after having such a successful weekend of sailing (I actually sailed well) and having a momentary loss of sanity with another competitor, I was not hesitant about accepting the penalty assessed, circling the mark and then crossing the finish line as directed. Now I am sure of the rules and know how to handle the situation should it occur again.

Thanks again guys!

Skip :D
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby steve h » Tue May 08, 2012 10:29 pm

Skip,

I'm mentally running through the finish you are referring to. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to see if you were taken up, and I was too far offshore to hear if you had protested. I was able to see that you did contact the finish mark, which is why i called it. Did you mention anything to the other competitor, and or to the race staff onshore? Presented with this after the fact, it would have been worth a protest, and possibly a finish order change. Like you said, things were quite "intense" during that last race, and things were really happening fast.

If i understand the explanation, you should have asked for room approaching the finish mark, and have been granted that room. Had that happened, you would have been given room to clear the finish mark. Had you not been given room, you could/should have protested the other boat, and had that skipper acknowledge the penalty, come back to the area on the active course, performed a turn, and then finished. Had the skipper not acknowledged the protest, it could/would/should go to committee to sort out. Is this correct? What will you do in the event that this happens again at another event? (so i can figure out if it is what i would do if presented with the same circumstance).

I'm trying to learn from experiences like this, not just as race staff/rd capacity, but also as a competitor. I can see where having the RD stay on shore could have brought about a different outcome in that heat. Looking at the scores, I can also see where that would have put you into a tie on points with Chris, with him taking it 4 wins to 3. That is assuming you only lost one position to the boat that forced you outside of the finish mark.

I do commend you on your sportsmanship exhibited in your post, and more importantly, the actions you displayed along the shoreline. You were definitely sailing well on both days. Next time i see you, i owe you a beverage. :D
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby skip241 » Wed May 09, 2012 9:22 am

Steve,

You don't owe me a thing!!! I had a great time at your regatta and again, you guys did a super job.

My lesson in this circumstance was that I should have called for room and then protested if I felt disadvantaged. In that last race, I did neither and that's my fault. Truth be known, I was amazed that by tacking towards the shore when everyone else went offshore resulted in me moving up from last to second or third a few feet from the finish line. That, along with the wind starting to howl, I was too excited to think about rules and procedures. I just wanted to cross that line ahead of that other boat. I need to learn how to quell that excitement.

Thanks again for you and your team's efforts Steve. It was grand!

Skip :D
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby steve h » Wed May 09, 2012 10:01 am

Hehe. I wasnt saying I owed ya one for a blown call. I just meant I owed you a beverage just because. :mrgreen: Thanks for the compliments. We loved hosting you guys.

There are races where you would think im piloting an Americas Cup boat coming to the finish in the final heat...whoever said this hobby is relaxing has never had more than one boat on the water. LOL
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Re: Racing to the Finish

Postby greerdr » Wed May 16, 2012 11:43 pm

As usual Skip is exhibiting his genteel,almost over the top,sportsmanship.
We need to pay close attention to these very precise rules discussions to keep us ,as Rick West reminds us,the best informed (and in my opinion) best sailors around.
I've learned more in a few years sailing 12's than decades in big boats.
Thank you fellow skippers-I am proud to have you as mates.
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