Reichard at Sun City

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Reichard at Sun City

Postby s vernon » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:38 pm

I mostly do not mean to cause touble. I just want to understand.

Maybe Reichard dropped out in a different race but the incident that I was almost part of the and that I dicussed with Reichard after the race was:

A boat missed the leeward offset just ahead of Reichard and spun around and forced Reichard to go wide. Reichard protested and now I think he was in the right to protest.

That boat, if it had not needed to tack and jibe or jibe and tack (whichever) while in the 4 boat length circle would have had "mark room" rights over Reichard as it was always ahead of him, but since it did do all those machination inside 4 lengths I think it lost its mark room rights. That is what I remember saying to Reichard - the possibility of that being true - as I walked away. And I believe I said that he should check with Tom G the rules guy.

Like I say I am wondering if that is the race where he dropped out.

And probably Reichard remembers our conversation differently which would be fine and maybe more true.

Originally I had been the one who was wondering out loud if that other boat did have mark room rights over Reichard due to it being ahead of him the whole time.

I am not trying to diminish Reichard's hero status in any way, but just trying to understand it all in my "funny brain".

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Postby tag1945 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:50 pm

I did not see the incident but Reichard did tell me that the other boat responded to his protest and did a penalty turn. After Reichard finished the heat He felt that he made a bad protest hail and notified the RD that he is Retiring After Finishing (RAF).

I cannot make a call on the incident as I don't have enough information. The action that Reichard took was very appropriate if he felt that his action was wrong. Remember there is a Rule 2 in the rule book that everyone should read and understand. Fair sailing and good sportsmanship makes for good fun!

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Postby kahle67 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:59 pm

Scott,

It was the same race and your comments had nothing to do with my decision to withdraw. It was Tom Phillips who missed the leeward offset mark and I was so focused on what was happening just astern of me that I was caught by surprise. It happened very quickly but Tom was all of a sudden approaching me on starboard after he missed the mark. I hailed for him not to go in there and all I had to do was bear off slightly to avoid contact. Natural instinct was to protest and he did his turn immediately after rounding. If this were a weather mark rounding leaving marks to port, I am certain that I would be correct in protesting but since it was a leeward mark, I had some doubts so I did what I thought was right and withdrew.

I have been fortunate enough to have come home with a few victories in this class and others and to go home thinking that I may have taken advantage of another skipper, it is just not worth it. Hell, I don't even care if I may have been right after all.

There is no hero status here. I can't think of one other skipper that sails the EC-12 at the championship level that would not have done the same if there was a shadow of a doubt about a call that may have just screwed a fellow skipper.

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Postby bigfoot55 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:08 pm

I am the other boat in question, here is my view.
I was way in front of the next boat(s) approaching the offset on port tack. I missed the mark. Immediatly tacked onto starboard and headed back toward the lay line, Reichard hailed I had 'no right to go in there'. I continued on starboard to turn untill I gybed onto port still in front of Reichard. Even though I missed the mark, I am not without rights. Stayed in the zone and had time to make the 360. Recovered pretty fast and yet not as quick as I thought. I gybed from Starboad onto port fast and would accept that might classify as a foul for changing course. Rule 16.1 Why I did a turn.
I believe in retrospect I did not foul and had the right 'to go in there'; since he easily missed me, but these things happen quickly and without a video tape,----.
Tom G will likely use the incident for one of his rules briefs. The rules were not written with the idea that some clown will miss an easy to see mark. I blew a good finish. A good rules excercise. Several issues to evaluate.
I appreciate Reichards sportsmanship, although I urged him not to withdraw. I had accepted and done a penalty turn. In Bridge, a card laid is a card played. It cost him a place. It is an example for us all.


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Postby greerdr » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:53 pm

i agree this is a wonderful opportunity for a Tom Germer tutorial.
I thought if you tacked in the circle (Foul or not) you have become "give way" not ROW boat.
I am not surprised Reichard bore away-he is MY hero in this sport.
Bigfoot,bring your cards to nats and we will play bridge-betcha Rick West knows how to play and we only need a 4th.

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Postby greerdr » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:53 pm

WOW!
look at our "News from the EC-12 Class" for insight.
That whole rules conundrum was spelled out as clearly as possible;still hope (after 3 readings) i've got it.
Thanks Tom.

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Postby Rick West » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:56 pm

Ah, so many games and so little time...

...94 [8D]
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Postby gcobley » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:58 pm

Hey Tom! Need you to chime in I think.

As I understand it, it is a myth that tacking or gybing in the 4 boat circle means you lose your rights.
All the usual rules apply about giving other boats a chance to keep clear etc. but the only right you lose is the right to luff a windward boat (past close hauled).


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Postby tag1945 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:21 am

Gerry

I'm not sure what you mean "lose your rights." First and formost, Section A rules applies!!!! There is only 4 rules in Section A and one of them always applies unless they are specifically turned off by another rule, such as Section D rules 21 and 22.

<font color="blue">SECTION D - OTHER RULES
When rule 21 or 22 applies between two boats, Section A rules do not. </font id="blue">

What happened in this rule discussion, was a clear ahead boat entered the zone and rule 18.2b gave that boat the right to Mark-Room. When she, after missing the mark, tacked to properly round the mark, the second sentence of rule 18.2c turned off 18.2b and the only rule that applied at that time was a Section A rule. In this case rule 13 while tacking and rule 10 when the boat arrived at a close hauled course on Starboard tack.
A lot of people believed that rule 18.3 applied because the boat tacked in the zone. But the mistake there was a misunderstanding of what turns on Rule 18.3.

Since the boat that tacked is now on Starboard tack, the other boat is on Port tack, the port tack boat must keep clear of the starboard tack boat, Rule 10. You cannot apply what happened at a leeward mark to a weather mark. If you read the rule discussion in the last EC-12 Class News, I provide more details.

<font color="blue">18.3 Tacking when Approaching a Mark
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is <b>fetching</b> the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply.</font id="blue">

As you can see, for 18.3 to be turned on, one of the boats must tack in the zone, the other must be <b>fetching</b> the mark and they must be on opposite tack. Since the other boat was not "fetching the mark" rule 18.3 was not turned on.

It is important that you use the definitions for words and terms that are spelled out in the RRS book. In the case in this discussion, one boat did tack, the boats were on opposite tack, but the other boat was not <b>fetching</b> the mark.

Definition:
<font color="red">A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack. </font id="red">

Another thing you must remember is that the rules apply to marks based on the wind direction at the time you enter the zone. In this case the offset mark was a leeward mark. A wind shift could have turned this mark into a windward mark and it would be possible for a boat to be fetching the mark! When you take another boat to protest, it is extremely important to note the wind direction at the mark in question at that time. The course board that labels the marks is not the way rules identify the marks, it is always the wind direction at the mark. In big boat sailing, Marks are shifted often to ensure a specific wind direction at each mark. We cannot do this all the time.

Rule 18.2
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.

One added note:
Definitions as defined in the RRS are not dictionary definitions! Make sure you look up the definitions for words or phrases use in the rules as the definitions are part of the rules that the words are used in.


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