Touching a mark

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Touching a mark

Postby Frandito » Sun May 22, 2011 6:56 am

The situation is that a yacht while attempting to pass a mark to starboard, misses it and strikes it on her port side.

Now she turns to starboard and rounds the mark correctly, passing it to starboard without incident

In her re round she has done a full 360 degree turn.

Does that turn exonerate her from touching the mark, or does she have to do another?
Does she have to do the turn before continuing to race...before re rounding?
Can the re round and the penalty turn be do with the one maneuver?

Thanks


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Postby tag1945 » Sun May 22, 2011 6:03 pm

Fran

Rule 28.1 requires you to leave each mark on the correct side. As you described your situation, you did leave the mark on the correct side and did not break this rule and you do not have to reround the mark.
Rule 31 requires you to not touch the mark. In your situation, you did touch the mark and are required to do a 1 turn penalty as prescribed in Rule 44.1.
In Rule 44.2, "<font color="red"><b>After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible</b></font id="red">" you must do your 1 turn penalty. If you hit the mark as result of another breach of the rules, and are required to do a turn penalty for that infraction, you are not required to do an additional penalty turn for the breaking rule 31.

In short, if you touch a mark on the correct side, without an additional rule infraction requiring a penalty turn , you do not have to reround the mark, but sail well clear of other boats and do your one turn penalty. Rerounding the mark only leads to problems for the fleet behind you. While you do a penalty turn, you must stay clear of other boats.....

<font color="red">28 SAILING THE COURSE
28.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, and finish, so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when drawn taut
(a) pass each mark on the required side,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule. After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely.

31 TOUCHING A MARK
While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
<b>After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident</b> as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.</font id="red">

Tom
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Postby Frandito » Tue May 24, 2011 8:02 am

a lot of words, but no answers...
what are the three answers to the three questions i have posed?
thanks

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tag1945</i>

Fran

Rule 28.1 requires you to leave each mark on the correct side. As you described your situation, you did leave the mark on the correct side and did not break this rule and you do not have to reround the mark.
Rule 31 requires you to not touch the mark. In your situation, you did touch the mark and are required to do a 1 turn penalty as prescribed in Rule 44.1.
In Rule 44.2, "<font color="red"><b>After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible</b></font id="red">" you must do your 1 turn penalty. If you hit the mark as result of another breach of the rules, and are required to do a turn penalty for that infraction, you are not required to do an additional penalty turn for the breaking rule 31.

In short, if you touch a mark on the correct side, without an additional rule infraction requiring a penalty turn , you do not have to reround the mark, but sail well clear of other boats and do your one turn penalty. Rerounding the mark only leads to problems for the fleet behind you. While you do a penalty turn, you must stay clear of other boats.....

<font color="red">28 SAILING THE COURSE
28.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, and finish, so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when drawn taut
(a) pass each mark on the required side,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule. After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely.

31 TOUCHING A MARK
While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
<b>After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident</b> as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.</font id="red">

Tom

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Postby tag1945 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:00 am

I'll try again


<font color="red">Does that turn exonerate her from touching the mark, or does she have to do another? </font id="red">

A 360 degree turn is required and as long as you comply with keeping clear of other boats while doing your turn, you have complied with rule 31.


<font color="red">Does she have to do the turn before continuing to race...before re rounding?</font id="red">

As the rules state, "As soon as possible."


<font color="red">Can the re round and the penalty turn be done with the one maneuver? </font id="red">

Your situation you described stated that after touching the mark on her port side, she then bore off to Starboard, completed her turn and continued around the mark. I assume that the proper mark rounding was to leave the mark to port. In that case, bearing off and completing your turn while keeping clear of other boats is fine. You would have complied with rule 31, (1 penalty turn) and rule 28 sailing the course. Your string when pulled taught would still be on the correct side of the mark.

Case 90 addresses the situation when a boat touch a mark and continued to round the mark and re rounded the mark to port for her penalty turn. The string rule of rule 28.1 does not prevent you from making additional turns around a mark.

My only suggestion to you is one of the most important rules is to Keep Clear while doing a penaly turn. It is very unfair for other boats to have to deal with a boat doing a penalty turn.....

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Postby Frandito » Tue May 24, 2011 11:23 am

The mark was to be turned to Starboard as i stated, not to Port

It seem to me that a yes/no answer is possible for the questions

It is really a simple situation. I just want to know if you turn 360 to round does that also count as your penalty. Or does the rounding and the penalty have to be done separately

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Postby tag1945 » Tue May 24, 2011 11:50 am

Fran

I missed understood you. When you stated "strikes it on her port side" I though you were talking about the boat not the mark. Sorry.

As I stated before, you can have multiple turns around the mark. In the situation you described, the re round containing a Tack and a Gybe would count to your 1 turn penalty as long as you kept clear of other boats while you did your turn.

Diagrams help!
I hope this answers your question.
Tom

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Frandito</i>

The mark was to be turned to Starboard as i stated, not to Port

It seem to me that a yes/no answer is possible for the questions

It is really a simple situation. I just want to know if you turn 360 to round does that also count as your penalty. Or does the rounding and the penalty have to be done separately

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Postby Rob Guyatt » Tue May 31, 2011 8:49 am

Hi Tom and Fran,
As I understand the question, a boat touches the mark on the wrong side. In other words if she continued to sail on she will not have sailed the course correctly (not complied with rule 28.1) as well as breaching 31. So to conform to 28.1 she must still round the mark AND also exonerate herself according to 44 for breaking 31. Both of these requirements can be fulfilled simultaneously as Tom says.

I recall some discussion on marks in a previous thread a while back. That was regarding not rounding a mark at all (regardless of touching it or not). I do more race directing than sailing these days. You see a lot when not concentrating on your own boat. How we handle the situation of a mark not being rounded (breaking rule 28.1)depends on who witnesses it. If a fellow skipper witnesses a boat not abide by 28.1 then it must go to protest unless the offender retires (RAF).

If the witness is a member of the race committee it does not go to protest. It is simply a DNF. This is arguable as to its legality but it works. As long as the skipper is informed as they cross the finish line, he/she can always request redress if they believe they did conform to 28.1. In which case a hearing is required. But in every case I have been involved in the skipper always accepted the word of the race committee (reluctantly I admit).

But here's my take on mark contacts. It's a victim less crime. I argue that we should put a clause in appendix E to write out rule 31. I believe this would simplify management of regattas significantly. I do not buy the argument that this would cause "barging" at marks. The rules of part 2 covers "barging" more than adequately.

If you wanted to try this out, it just requires an S.I. clause such as "Rule 31 does not apply."

Cheers

Rob
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Postby tag1945 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:17 am

Rob

Something else to consider:

Rob

One shortfall of allowing marks to be touched is that the contact may move the mark. If a clear ahead boat contacted a mark and caused the mark to move just ahead of several clear astern boats, the mark shift may change the layline enough that the clear astern boats can no longer fetch the mark. Case 28 gives an example of how a boat can move a mark and affect another boat. Rules 28.1 still require all boats to pass the mark properly even if another boat has moved the mark. The boat that hit the mark, might even gain a "Significant Advantage" as a result of hitting the mark.

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Postby Rob Guyatt » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:35 pm

Tom
I have heard all sorts of theories why rule 31 is a good thing and that mayhem would be caused in its absence. To me they are all just theories supported by little evidence. I do concede that there may well be increased problems in certain circumstances but I also believe that the benefits will out weigh the negatives. The scenario you mention can certainly occur now just as easily if not as often as if 31 was deleted. I can't recall seeing such a scenario myself in my 30 years in this game but am not saying it doesn't happen. But my experience suggests it's rare. Let's say it would happen twice as often if 31 was deleted. Now think of the pluses and minuses. A few extra occurrence of that scenario vs. the reduced number of penalty turns skippers have to do. No need to keep an eye out for skippers who believe it's not a crime if no-one else saw the mark contact. No buoy marshals required. Observers could concentrate on the real infringements like contacts between boats. I rests me case [:)]



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Postby greerdr » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:30 pm

In our regattas we often allow outside marks to be touched but those close to shore (and clearly more visible ) are "hot".
Start/finish are always hot.
We also sometimes add a "committee boat" bouy to discourage "barging" at the start.

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