RRS 2, 14, 44.1

The Racing Rules prescribe certain things. It's wise to know them, at least the basics. This area discusses the finer points of the racing rules for sailing fast.

Moderators: Capt. Flak, bigfoot55, Chuck Luscomb

RRS 2, 14, 44.1

Postby Rick West » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:54 pm

Follow up from the 100402 Newsletter...
<b>RRS 2, 14, 44.1</b>
I feel this should be visited to hear opinions from those that sail in scheduled regattas just for fun and those whose fun is competing at a higher level; those that know the rules and those that rely on the basic ones. I may not have the right perspective of what we do and why, but wonder at seeing the same issues regatta after regatta; a skipper having rights thereby assuming no other responsibilities on the water with friends at the time. There is some truth in being Dead Right. It is the aftermath that concerns me more and how it places a pall over our playground.

These rules cover Fair Sailing, Avoiding Contact, and Taking a Penalty (the retiring part).
Refer to the rulebook in your toolbox. Here are the points of discussion:
The intent of Rule 14 is there should be no contact if reasonably possible. How is a boat, with her skipper yelling starboard, to be handled in this rule when she runs over you with no attempt to avoid?
If there was damage in the collision to the burdened boat, should the boat that just ran over you be subject to retirement from the heat under 44.1? I consider a scratch to a faired hull or a crease in a sail to be damage and an issue of performance.
Further, where does this stack with reasonable consideration to fair play and sportsmanship? I consider running over my boat because I was numb and vacant or unavoidable on my part an act outside the bounds of fair play, sportsmanship and just plain poor behavior.

(I probably sail more competitive events than most of you in a season and feel it fair to make this observation from experience. In my recent escapades into the IOM Class with two championships and three area club events with more than 10 sailing, more boats have retired from a heat under 44.1 than any I am aware of in 12 years of EC12 racing. Many were not noted till a review of the scoring, as these have been the quietest regattas I have ever sailed.)

I have been told that pressing these matters with a boat that has the right away is futile. I think it should matter and be presented to a protest committee anyway to illuminate the reoccurring issues for consideration under these rules. I think this is fair play and chances to present your point of view where you think some consideration is due even when you commit the first wrong. I have done some stupid things in sailing and maybe some were boneheaded. For most I should have retired and sent to my room. There are times when an apology needs to be followed with a demonstration of the words.

Now having said all this, I have to say those of you I sail and visit with in my travels have enriched my life with friendships and camaraderie. Truly, I would not be doing this otherwise. We lose control for a few seconds and may not know how to follow up till the calm comes later. What do you think?


...94 [8D]
User avatar
Rick West
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Postby Winston » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:10 pm

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread so here goes.

At the beginning of a race it is ALWAYS possible to avoid contact. All you have to do is start last and vigorously defend that position by staying well away from other boats. The closer you get to other boats the more likely the contact. Getting very close to another boat (collision imminent) you want the guy on starboard to change course or withdraw from the race?

I (and you) still have to sail with bonehead port tackers who put big holes in boats, keep racing while I have to retire (or sink) and NEVER acknowledge fault. This leaves me with no surplus of concern for the burdened vessels on the course.

I recognize my duty to avoid contact, but I will hold my (privileged) course against a port tacker until the moment of truth (Bang! "I thought I had it" says the port tacker at the windward mark). Now, if he thought he "had it" and I avoided him I know he isn't going to acknowledge a foul, he will race on unjustifiably.

If a bonehead boat is "dead in the water" and I am moving and in control I am going to avoid that boat (he obviously can't avoid me).

Otherwise, starboard not only has rights, but the expectation that port will yield. That expectation started when the race started and lasts until the moment of contact. Whoops.

OK, now beat me like a Pinata.

Winston
Winston
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:24 am
Location:

Postby Jon Luscomb » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:28 pm

Gee Winston, I guess you are one to take it to the point of no return and hole a burdened boat because your right? ouch!

PLan 1: It seems that the <u>corinthian</u> thing to do is to obey the rule, anticipate you opponent's options, alter course to avoid contact and hail "protest". If the burdened boat is truly wrong, you should win your protest with out a touch. What would happen if you missed him, protested, continued to sail, finished the race, scored, and settled it in the room? No glass work for one, and most likley you will score better.

Plan 2: (a)There are tactical reasons to avoid contact....your are on starboard and are lifted...let the guy go the wrong way.

(b)You are headed and need to go back to the right....let him go, tack behind him and use him as a pick for starboard tackers...

(c) either way avaoid contact, because not doing so is slow.

Just sayin' dude






I would rather wonder why I won than to know exaclty why I lost.
User avatar
Jon Luscomb
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 6:39 pm

Postby Doug Wotring » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:01 am

Couple Things.

1. the starboard boat should not purposely run down the port boat EVER, Tack away or bear off and PROTEST

2. I see alot of times the Stb boat hailing stb, and the port boat never responding, be it with a course change or verbally. PORT BOAT: RESPOND

3. There seems to be an aversion to going to the protest room. If there is a reason to go go. if you have been communicationg, you WILL have witnesses. Do not be afraid to take it to the room. It sucks but it must be done or threatened.

4. Race committees should not use: " the protest will be at O'Dark Thirty" Although in most cases someone knows they are wrong

5. Race Committee members should be watching and can be whitnesses.....a word from them can usually get the offender to do thier penalty...and should also be proactive and call protests they see, especially if it is obvious. If they can call Over Early or Finishes they can call other judgements too and Should

6 If skippers don;t know the rules, Learn them. It is part of the sport.

7: Communications: If at all possible be standing around the area of the skippers of the boats your boat is near. this facilitates calm low dB level communications and you can communicate your intentions and most Collisions can be avoided

8. I see Alot of Stb boats altering course (generally ducking) stubborn Prt boats and never calling the protest...they really should call the protest......particularly if the Stb skipper was hailing stb.....if they were talking all along and the stb boat gives the prt boat the Okay, then the burden is on the Stb skipper, but if not.....the prt boat owes a turn, (or two)...as it is effecting all the skippers behind as well.

9. Third party protests. Rarely ever hear them..but I think sometimes they are needed, just because you are ahead and cheat, does not mean you should benefit from the cheating.


Basically all comes down to two things.

COMMUNICATION and SITUATIONAL AWARENESS

these with knowledge and playing by the most contact can be avoided
Doug Wotring
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:46 pm
Location:

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:12 pm

Spot on guys..

A few more things to add,

If a collision does occur and you are the port tack boat, DO your turn and don't argue the point. Many do not realize that you loose more ground on the race course by arguing with another skipper than just doing your turn as your focus shifts to the argument rather than your strategy.

If you cause damage... do not do your circle and sail on like nothing happened. You should at minimum retire from the race and offer assistance to the boat you damaged. It is just the right thing to do.

Don't wait to hear "Protest" as you know you did something wrong long before that word is spoken.

Once you create a image of NOT taking responsibility for your actions, it is known to all that race with you and you are only fooling yourself into thinking that no one noticed. We ALL notice.

In the end, after the last finish and the boats are pulled from the water, we want to still be friends.

Doug, if I am on starboard and duck a port tacker without saying anything it is most likly that I do not want him to tack in front of me or on my breeze. My focus is on the big picture rather than forcing someone to tack.


Winston, I am pretty sure you should avoid Port tack from now on since most know how you would handle it if they were on Port. Maybe some floatation in your boat would be in order.


Chuck
#84
User avatar
Chuck Luscomb
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: Region 1 EC12 CAC Member

Postby tag1945 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:25 pm

There is a lot to be said for sailors not using the rules or misunderstanding them!

Rick offered 3 rules up for opinions:

1. "The intent of Rule 14" This is a very straight forward rule! For big boats, the damages can be thousands of dollars and even for our EC-12s, it can be very expensive. I had a boat hit me once that broke the jib boom, tore the jib. That alone was a $100.00 repair! There are two ways to get our sailors to understand the intent of Rule 14 and conform to Rule 14.
First, the KEEP CLEAR boat must do a better job of staying clear. To many times the KEEP CLEAR boat fails to realize their speed or direction and change their course to not interfere with a ROW boat. KEEP CLEAR is part of all 4 Part 2, Section A rules!

RULE 14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if <b>reasonably possible</b>. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) <b>need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear</b> or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) <b>shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage</b> or injury.

Second, the ROW boat must realize that there is nothing to gain by contacting another boat. The ROW boat must protest a KEEP CLEAR boat and, as Doug stated, take it to protest if you don't get a response from the KEEP CLEAR boat. I recommend that you take a few minutes and read Cases 26, 27, 87, 88, 99, 107. These cases deal with this problem and provide good knowledge for protest committees to use when hearing protests.

2. "Rule 44 Taking Penalties"
Rule 44 and specifically 44.1b require that "if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire." We have discussed this rule before. Appendix E, E4.4 left some doubt if 44.1b applied to RC boats. After much discussion with several US Sailing Rules officials, ISAF Rules officials, AMYA Rules Guy, and Florida Association's Sailing Judge, Florida Association adopted their recommendation to rewrite our Sailing Instructions to include the following: "Change Appendix E rule E4.4 to read: E4.4 Penalties for Breaking Rules of Part 2: Throughout rule 44 the Two-Turns Penalty shall be a One-Turn Penalty." This change will help get the word out that it is appropriate for a boat to RETIRE under Rule 44.1b. My opinion about "serious damage" is a little different than Rick's. If your boat receives damage that requires you to leave the race for inspection or repair, that is (Rule 44.1b)"serious damage" or (Rule 14)"damage" Because we are not on our boats and can loose site of them with large fleets, I don't think a scratch to be "serious damage" or "damage."

3. "Rule 2, fair play and sportsmanship"
In my opinion, we don't use this rule often enough. Doug's comments on Race Committees, RD, and Judges are important to curb some of these problems. I have seen several times that a sailor was protested by several boats and several times in one race but failed to even acknowledge the protests. The RD or judges should take action against this sailor. Another problem is breaches of the rules that are not Protested. This really takes away from the fun of racing. One more thing on Fair Play and Sportsmanship. Our regattas are Fleet racing, not Team Racing. Breaking a rule to help a competitor or not calling a protest on a competitor is not fair play to the other Fleet sailors.
User avatar
tag1945
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: The Villages, Florida

Postby Jim Hale » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:20 pm

As one who has made more than his share of bonehead moves (and has felt badly about the results, every time), I can say that communication between the ROW and the burdened boats would have avoided contact about 90 percent of the time. The problem often is that the ROW boat is near the start line, while the burdened boat is halfway to the windward mark, for example. Communication does not happen, under these conditions.

Our local club has a solution that seems to help, a lot. We confine the skippers to an area near the start line. No walking to the w/w nor l/w marks. Not 100 percent effective, but this definitely helps. Other clubs may want to experiment with this rule.

Jim Hale
#2056
Jim Hale
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:34 pm

Postby pgfaini » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:28 am

Jim, I'm just starting in EC12's, but our club, Sun City Carolina Lakes Model Yacht Club, sails Nirvana II's in a large lake, and the W/W mark is way out there. If we followed your advice and stayed near the starting line, we would have half the boats doing 360's at the W/W mark for failure to get around it, and collisions would be a real problem!
Oh, Did I mention, we're a retirement community, and our depth perception isn't what it once was?[:)]

Paul #614
pgfaini
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:26 am
Location:

Postby Rick West » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:58 am

Good point Jim, for this happens from time to time. You say some thing and get no response because they are 30 yards away. It is hard to control this because mostly it is caused by physical stress.

However, I really feel slighted when I am 50 feet from my boat and a skipper that is 30 yards away and at a huge different angle insists with his point of view.

But this is not the question here. Thanks for the reminder and a good observation.

...94 [8D]
User avatar
Rick West
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Postby Fred Maurer » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:43 pm

Most of what has been said here addresses the problem after the fact. That is, after the infraction. Most all good points and I hope well taken by the fleet. For those of you that, like me, follow this forum to learn more about the EC-12 and our sport, let me suggest that part of the problem for some of us is a lack of familiarity with the rules. Most all understand Rule 10. Simple, straight forward. Other rules, not so much.

Suggestion: Go to the web site aptly named Playing By The Rules. (http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm) I recommend that you become familiar with the web site in its entirety. It is all very informative. The best way to start learning about the rules is by clicking on the Situations by the number section. Try it; youre going to like it! It is a very fun way to learn, or refresh your understanding of the rules. Hopefully the understanding gained from this excellent web site and a good measure of the sportsmanship that has been mentioned above will help all on our race courses to better enjoy the sport of competitive sailing.
Fred Maurer
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:04 pm
Location: State College, PA

Postby ivorcwalton » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:30 pm

The problem with requiring a starboard tacker to avoid a port tacker is that when it's blowing hard, in B-rig conditions, by the time you realize that a port tacker isn't going to yield it's too late to avoid a crash. This situation is magnified in events with large fleets where you may not be familiar with all the skippers. You don't know if the port tacker bearing down on you is an expert waiting until the last minute before taking action or a beginner who doesn't know the rules.

The safest strategy for starboard tackers in large fleets is to duck every port tacker rather than try to guess which one is going to obey the rules. It's either that or avoid large fleet regattas altogether.

Ivor
ivorcwalton
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:04 am
Location:

Postby yachtie » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:28 pm

A common point coming out now is the distance away from the incident and differing points/angle of view.

I personally get p'd off when a skipper who is either a/ lazy or b/ a jackass (and yes there are a few around [V]) and is as mentioned 30 or more yards(meters for us modern country folk [8D]) and call "I though I could cross you"

Myself having sailed in NZ , AUS and the US I can honestly say anyone who is anywhere near competitive is generally pretty good at keeping clear and avoiding an incident as we all know you may have ROW but getting tangled up you may as well stay home for that race. There are unfortunately a few who sail only once or twice a year in bigger fleets and this is where we see major issues/collisions when the guy who ain't used to it gets flustered because there are"too many boats out there"

The RRS is simple and should be known by anyone racing - especially the basic ROW situations however we will always have the b sailor who gets it wrong and plays ostrich.


Chris
NZL1 Longtack
NZL110 Swept Away NZL128 Ketch me if U Can
yachtie
 

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 am

Gents,

I think Fred was on the money. Our ranks are an ever changing ebb and flow of new folks coming in and folks who have just decided not to play anymore. For the health of our sport and our fleet, we have to be tolerant of new comers learning curve.

We have a very agressive rules program at our club which during regular sailing days, the leaders of the fleet will begin each day touching on a single rule. We start by getting everyone around and we explain the rule in detail. We put in a couple of boats and show how it appears on the race course. At the end of sailing, we have an open rules discussion that questions can be asked of any interactions that occured during that session.

The results have been very good. The guys who have been finishing mid fleet most of the time have gained the confidence to challenge rather than retreat and we are seeing them more and more wining races.

If I see a guy who tends to be in the bottom 3rd of the fleet manage to get a great start and be out in front, I will stand next to him and coach him around the race course in hopes of seeing him maintain his lead.

Compared to most, we have a very young EC12 Fleet(Started in 2004). We have 13 boats in our club and 3 years ago 10 of us traveled to Stowe VT. 8 managed a top 10 finish.

Pretty good stuff.


Chuck
#84
User avatar
Chuck Luscomb
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: Region 1 EC12 CAC Member

Postby Jon Luscomb » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:22 am

I see sailing much in the same way I see golf. The sports are self governing. It is up to each sailor and golfer to stick to the rules and call a foul on them <u>self</u> rather than wait to be called on it.....IE..If you touch your ball while it is in play, and noone sees it, it is still 2-strokes. The golfer is expected call the penalty on themself. No one may know it, but you know what....the golfer does. If a sailor hits a mark and sees it, he should spin even if he isnot called on it. In sailing we are all expected to inforce the rules on ourselves and on others even if we are not involved and witness an incident.

Winston's post troubles me in 2 ways. (nothing personal Winston, but you posted) Winston is an example of others and not the only one.

First, I feel this attitude is a way for a sailor to "bully" himself around the course. We have all seen it and we newbies have had a taste. The sailor may see it as an edge to be intimidating. Other competitors now know not to "mess with that guy", he will prove that he is "right" with contact rather than the proverbial red flag. I for one am not in favor of bumper boats and when I sail with those guys, I have learned to stay clear of them for that reason. Problem is if you are behind it is hard to pass them.

The second is after the sailor seriously damages someone, he will continue to sail, he will argue that he was in the right, when in fact he could be wrong and whomever his victim is, is out of the race or ashore after rescue fixing things fast. It is just plain mean.

I see so many out there that bang away and tangle and break boats and do not spin or retire. If people are allowed to getaway with that stuff then they will never come around.

This is a gentlemen's game and we all make mistakes and have accidents. We all take this very serously and enjoy the competition, but winning ISN'T everything....It is the fun before during and after the regatta. It is the laughing and playing....we will all have our day at the top even if it isn't today. I agree with my brother about bringing in new sailors and mentoring them, but how does one mentor the Winston's that are out there now and have their own set of rules?

Umpires? Peer Pressure?

I would rather wonder why I won than to know exaclty why I lost.
User avatar
Jon Luscomb
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 6:39 pm

Postby Chuck Luscomb » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:20 pm

Although this might sound harsh, we have had our run-ins with folks who just plain did not want to abide by the rules. Who knows why really.

In one case, we had a guy who fouled another boat and did not do his circle and when confronted, he yelled with such volume that the other skipper just recoiled and gave up. This was not the only time we had witnessed this with this particular skipper.

This is where the RC is really required to step in because the event is at risk when someone is able to conduct themselves in this manner. We all paid an entry fee and we are entitled to fair play. When we are unable to follow the rules that might lead us to the room, the RC should step in.

In this case, before the next start. I announced that all competitors were required to sail by the rules EXCEPT when in the vicinity of sail #1234 as this skipper does not obey the rules on your behalf so you are not required to obey the rules on his.

There were crickets in the gallery and when the boats resumed sailing, sail#1234 was now behaving himself. Peer pressure sometimes works.

In short, the rules are there for our mutual benefit. If an accident does happen, be gracious, it goes a long way.

Chuck
#84
User avatar
Chuck Luscomb
 
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: Region 1 EC12 CAC Member

Next

Return to Sailing with the RRS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron