You Shall Retire

[Capt. Flak]

Scott Vernon sent out an email to a handful of skippers telling them that I got it wrong with respect to Rule 44.1(b) and E4.4. Here is what he said:

<font color="blue">Here is an email that was sent to Florida Assn members. Some people are upset with other people not obeying the rules.

Joe has got it wrong on the rules saying that people are supposed to drop out if they gain a sizable advantage by fouling someone. Per Appendix E the penalty is one turn. That was discussed on the group, but Joe seems to be unconvinced by facts. Too bad. If you are going to write something like this, you need to accurate.

The rest of what he has written is well done in my opinion. Not an easy problem to solve.

Scott</font id="blue">

Scott, I do not have it wrong and Ken Morrison, who is a Senior USSailing Judge agrees with me. Rule 44.1(b) was not intended to be turned off by Appendix E4.4. The concern was to change two-turns to one-turn and nothing more. They simply did not think it through. In any event E4.4 can be changed in the Sailing Instructions and the Florida EC-12 Association will honor Rule 44.1(b) in our SI.

And just so you know, it is not SOME people who are upset, it is a lot of people who are upset about other people not obeying the rules.

I will post my letter tonight if anyone cares to read it.

Joe Walter #24

[s vernon]

Joe,

All you had to say in your document was that Ken Morrison says: What you posted here.

I am glad I sent out that email to members of our club and people interestd in our club and glad you got to read it so I can learn that you did have a basis for writing what you wrote.

A HANDFUL? That is very upsetting to me. It was closer to 2 handfuls.

Scott

[Capt. Flak]

Ok Scott, We are good. I stand corrected on the handful part. I did not put in my document what Ken said because he had not finished looking at it at the time I wrote it, but he did agree. Ken is sending a note to USSailing to look into this for correction as well as helping me edit our SI to show 44.1(b) stays in.

The bottom line is there are a lot more boats on the water now and we need to redouble our efforts to get everyone plying the same game.

Joe Walter #24

[Doug Wotring]

thats the way I read it.

If you gain unfair advantage by the foul and insueing followup ( ie raft up that the burdoned boat caused) or damage (demasting or sinking, etc,) the fouling boat should retire.

for the unfair advantage part......all you have to do is make sure you get behind the fouled boat.....that is: if you foul someone and in the course of the foul you put yourself in a tactically better ( in front)position......you should let that boat pass you...I would say at least before the next mark.

Reads pretty clear to me.

[Capt. Flak]

I added the part about Rule 44.1(b) to my letter and posted on my Website in a PDF download for anyone who would like to read it.

http://www.floridaec12.com/news.html


Joe Walter #24

[tag1945]

I sent an e-mail to Bill Worrall, the rules guy for AMYA and here is his opinion:

Hi Tom,

To start; The opinion that seems to be normally accepted is that rule E4.4 only changes the words "Two-Turns Penalty" in rule 44 to read "One-Turn Penalty" for radio controlled model boats and, rule E4.4 does not change any of the other provisions in rule 44 (rule 44.1(b) is not turned off).
Notice that the word "However", which is in the main part of rule 44.1, is part of both 44.1(a) and 44.1(b). In this context, "nevertheless" could be substituted for "however" and makes it easier to understand, that, while a turn penalty is required for breaking a rule of Part 2 or rule 31, when a boat causes serious damage or gains a significant advantage by breaking those rules, her penalty is to retire.
I checked the US SAILING Appeals and Cases and, as expected, no one has asked for an interpretation of E4.4. I think that E4.4 could be worded a little differently making it easier to understand, but it's not, so we just have to work with it the way it is.
You asked about changing rules 44 and/or E4.4 with the sailing instructions. Under rule 86 certain rules are allowed to be changed by the sailing instructions and, 44 and E4.4 are among those. At regattas, if 44 and E4.4 are changed, such as requiring a Two-Turns Penalty in place of a One-Turn Penalty, it is to be done by the sailing instructions in order to comply with the Racing Rules of Sailing. However, if 44 and E4.4 are changed at the fleet level it is usually done simply as a "club rule" since most of us don't use sailing instructions for fleet races.
In regard to retiring after causing serious damage or gaining a significant advantage by breaking a rule of Part 2 or rule 31, if a boat does not do this on her own a protest should be filed. It will then be up to the protest committee to decide and access the proper penalty.

Hope this helps.


Bill --- The Rules Guy

Tom
AMYA #6571

[greerdr]

Say you damage a boat and it cannot finish that race but is able to repair and race in the next race/heat? Does that require a withdraw/retirement from the regatta for the offender?
On occassion that foul is almost unaviodable as in a huge gust at a bottom mark and a turn afterward seems it should exonerate as the damaged boat will get redress.

R.C.Greer

[Doug Wotring]

my interpretations is:

if you cause such damage to a boat and it must retire, you must as well.

If that boat makes the next heat......you should too.

if that boat takes three heats to repair......you should sit out and in good sportsman fashion, help him with his repairs ( since we are all friends) this would keep you from having advantage over the damaged boat until you can both again be on the start line

[greerdr]

That sounds very reasonable and something I would (and have) done.
The offended insisted I continue racing and refused my boat to continue competing as I've seen done at Champions regatta previously.
The injured boat managed 4th with the missed race and redress.
Does it fit within the rules as presented?

R.C.Greer

[Doug Wotring]

I have seen people do the same.....offended boat say keep sailing etc.

the grey area is that not only does your offense put you at an advantage over the fouled boat but it also has relation to everyone else in the fleet.

hard to say.....maybe something the RD's should interpret/and make statement on in the SI's


where I see this being important is when the offending boat causes a huge raft after port tacking the fleet at the mark and sails off to a nice finish postion while 2+ boats get hung up. In this situation the offending boat should either retire..or...cease racing until those hung up boats get released

It's a new thing.....and in my opinion is right....will just take time to take over from what we have been doing

[Capt. Flak]

An update on what is going on right now with respect to E4.4.

Ken Morrison and Bill Worrall are working on the wording and presenting a case to US Sailing and or AMYA or what ever powers that be who make up the Appendix E rules. This change will not happen until 2013 as that is when all the rules are updated. However, we can still honor 44.1(b) in our Sailing Instructions.

It is the opinion of these judges and others that E4.4 was never meant to change the parts of Rule 44 dealing with retiring. They only meant to change two-turns to one-turn. The guy who submitted the Appendix E rules to USSailing died a short time ago and there appears to be nobody to ask if that in fact was the intent.

Anyway, there are some good people working on it.

Now, as to my read on 44.1(b). And this is only my opinion. I think if as a result of you breaking a rule, one or more boats raft up and need to be rescued, a rig goes in the water, or God forbid you sink the guy, you should retire from that heat. If they get going again in the next heat, all is well. If they are out for a number of heats making repairs, you should be over there helping them. After all this is supposed to be about having fun. It can't be much fun to keep sailing while the guy whose weekend you just ruined is packing up to go home.

However, there are folks out there who will refuse to accept your help or offer to use your boat. That would be a tough call to make, but I think the right call would be to retire from the regatta.

Joe Walter #24

[greerdr]

In that case do not have a "Factor Unrelated to Crew Knowledge" -nor- "Under Performance" as this will ruin your week-end in some old USN jargon.

R.C.Greer

[tag1945]

The following is from Bill Worrall (AMYA Rules Guy)

The One-Turn Penalty Revisited
by Bill Worrall
The One-Turn Penalty; For us who race model sailboats it is the penalty that we accept almost without question for breaking one of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS). However, let's take a look at the rules that impose that penalty. To begin, we will look at RRS 44.1, the rule that defines the penalties for breaking a rule of Part 2 or Rule 31-Touching a mark. It is in Part 4 of the RRS and reads: 44.1 Taking a Penalty: A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing or a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty. However,

(a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31;

(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

Notice that RRS 44.1 defines the penalty for breaking a rule of Part 2 as a Two-Turns Penalty and yet in model sailing only a One-Turn Penalty is normally required. Appendix E in the RRS changes some of the RRS to be more compatible with model sailing and RRS 44 is one of those that is changed.

Appendix E rule E4.4 changes Two-Turns Penalty in RRS 44 to a One-Turn Penalty.

It reads: E4.4 Penalties for Breaking Rules of Part 2: Throughout rule 44 the penalty shall be the One-Turn Penalty.
At this point a lot of you are likely thinking; OK, so what's new, this is how it's been as long as I've been racing model sailboats.

Well, recently I received a question from an AMYA member who simply asked: Does RRS E4.4 turn-off RRS 44.1(b)? My immediate response was; RRS E4.4 only changes the Two-Turn Penalty described in RRS 44 to a One-Turn Penalty. However, when you read RRS E4.4 carefully you find it says "Throughout" rule 44 the penalty shall be a One-Turn Penalty. While this may not turn-off RRS 44.1(b), it does appear that the required penalty of retiring when a boat causes serious damage or gains a significant advantage, as described in RRS 44.1(b), would also be changed to a One-Turn Penalty.

It was decided to ask the rules experts at US SAILING for their opinion. While we did not ask for an official interpretation, we did receive an opinion from several of them. On three points they all were in agreement. Those three points are:

1. The current wording of RRS E4.4 would change RRS 44.1(b) to require only a One-Turn Penalty for causing serious damage or gaining a significant advantage as a result of breaking a rule of Part 2 or Rule 31.

2. They all felt that the original intent of writing RRS E4.4 was to only change the Two-Turns Penalty to a One-Turn Penalty.

3. The proper way to correct this problem would be to change the wording of RRS E4.4, and that could not happen, at the earliest, before 2013 when next rule revision is scheduled.

To avoid any confusion or problem until RRS E4.4 is changed or some other solution is found, I recommend those who prepare regatta sailing instructions to include the following statement in the sailing instructions: Change Appendix E rule E4.4 to read: E4.4 Penalties for Breaking Rules of Part 2: Throughout rule 44 the Two-Turns Penalty shall be a One-Turn Penalty.

In addition, since clubs and local fleets do not normally use sailing instructions for their weekly racing, they should inform their members that the above change to RRS E4.4 would be in effect.

[Doug Wotring]

not sure if I buy into that interpretation.

it clearly states shall retire.....hard to beleive someone let that in when the intention was to be a one turn penalty

I can buy someone having omottied or overlook a one two two turn conversion or vice versa.....but to have a line item which soley states shall retire?????

[Capt. Flak]

Doug, Dave Perry also sent us his take on the rule. He feels that it was not worded well also. He pointed out that the word "However" changes or overrides the word "Throughout" in E4.4.

If you substitute "One-turn" in place of "Shall retire", the statement then makes no sense. As in...

...Throughout rule 44 the penalty shall be a one-turn penalty, However,if a boat causes injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race by her breach, her penalty shall be a one-turn penalty.

So you can see that Dave Perry thinks 44.1(b) was not meant to be turned off by E4.4.

The bottom line for me is that 44.1(b) should not have been changed by E4.4. The SI for the Florida EC-12 Association will be amended to reflect that.

Joe Walter #24