Rules question from the Quarterly AMYA

[Doug Wotring]

I noticed that the Article in the AMYA Quarterly specifically states that if as a result of a foul you damage or gain significant advantage in the race/races, the boat commiting the foul Must retire.

At least is that is what I thought I read.

Would this not mean:

1. if you fouled a boat and the foul resulted in a demasting or sinking etc, that the offending boat must retire from that race? Often there is redress for the fouled/damaged boats, but the offending boat does a turn and sails on.

2. If a boat fouls another boat(s) that results in a raft up....would this not mean that the offending boat needs to retire due to the unfair advantage.

[greerdr]

I holed Rick at Champions.We spoke about what next.I begged him to sail my boat for the rest of the regatta;as I thought he was done and out while in 3rd.
I asked the RD if I should retire and he asked if I'd done my turn after the incident.I had.He spoke with Rick who was adamant that I should continue racing.
I was so distraught I finished 17th(last) in the next race.
Rick pumped out his boat,patched his hull with tape, replaced reciever,batteries and switch and sailed in the next race.
I offered to retire and give my boat to the injured party.I think it was the right thing to do;but not if that is not the injured party's wish.
As far as raft up's...No.They happen and not always due to 1 sailors error.Advantage comes and goes to us all.The best sailors watch and find the advantages most of us never saw comming.

R.C.Greer

[s vernon]

My belief is that even if I cause other boats to raft up, they still get redress and will probably end up with a better score in that one race than I, the culprit, do. So, I believe that I do not need to retire in that race.

Generally usless someone protests a boat under that rule, an offending boat is going to sail on. I think if it can be shown that the victim boat or boats got a better score in that race than the offending boat, due to redress, then the culprit boat did not gain an advantage and should not be disqualified.

I guess putting a hole in another boat if you are at fault in our mostly bumperless class (duh) is an offense that could (and should) end your weekend early if the other boat cannot be quickly repaired. You, and Joe W at Charleston were good guys to offer use of your boats.

Scott

[tag1945]

Doug

Rule 44.1 A Boat may take a Two-Turn Penalty when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing or a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty.
However,
(a) When a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31;

(b) If the boat that caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach , her penalty shall be to retire.

Rule E4.4 Penalties for Breaking Rules of Part 2
Throughout Rule 44 the penalty shall be the One-Turn Penalty.

I believe that rule 44.1(b) does require the boat the caused injury or serious damage to retire, but I'm not sure if E4.4 would apply to 44.1(b) as that would seem very unfair to the damaged boat.

I sent an e-mail to Ulrich Finckh, the man who made the web page on sailing rules (http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm), and here is his response:

<font color="blue">Dear Tom,

The words in E4.4 are very clear. There is only a one turn-penalty. “Throughoutâ€

[Doug Wotring]

Tom. your quote of the author seems to be contradictory to a clear statement in the rules.

I know and have been whitness to plently of similar situations like Doc Greer's and understand that a large portion of our group are friends as well as just fellow skippers.

As far as Redress. this often makes the fouled boat "Whole" however in fleet racing a foul commited effects the whole fleet.

Now I agree retiring would suck...especially if it is you who must retire ( which I beleive is a non throwout score) but the way I am reading the rules that should be the penalty.

Is this not the case with big boats when significant damage is involved

[tag1945]

Doug

Appendix E Rule E4.4 is the rule. I agree with you that it sure sounds unfair, but it is the rule!

This might be a rule the RC sailboat community needs to have changed or further defined to make it fair to the the boat that received serious damage. Rule 44.1 applies to rule 14 also and this could mean that a right-a-way boat that caused the damage is required to do just a one turn penalty at the time of the incident. It appears that whoever wrote E4.4 believed that the only penalty needed by RC sailboats is the one-turn penalty at the time of the incident. I think that they have never sailed an EC-12 into another EC-12! It is not always just a bump.

I don't see any reason that Appendix E Rule E4.4 could not be modified in the sailing instructions to include rule 44.1(b) requirement to retire.

[Capt. Flak]

My feeling is that the folks who wrote Rule E4.4 were only thinking about the turns and NOT about retiring. I FEEL (as in I could be wrong) that they just did not word the rule well enough and that they inadvertently turned off 44.1(b).

I am going to get with Ken Morrison to hear his take on this and see what is needed to amend E4.4 if needed.

In the mean time, if I sink a boat like I did to Gerhard, I will always retire from the regatta and hand over my radio to the poor guy I damaged. If I cause a group of boats to raft up and wreck their heat, I will (and have) retire from that heat. It is the right thing to do.

Not sure about it not being able to be a throw-out though.

Remember that part of 44.1(b) says if you gain significant advantage. How many time have we seen a guy drive into the middle of a crowded mark rounding because he got a big puff and he bounces off other boats, spins them around and comes out the other side out in front. He says, "OOOPS", does a quick turn and is off while the mess he caused is left trying to get free.

Sure they may get redress and sure that redress might be better than his finishing position. But often it is not. The point is he gained an advantage from his foul. Regardless of what those other boats MIGHT get in redress, in that heat he gained and advantage and MUST retire.

Just one guys opinion.

Joe Walter #24