A Truly International EC12

Chat regarding International EC12 operations, country organizations, event gathering and proposed alliances.

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A Truly International EC12

Postby IanHB » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:38 am

[;)] A little while back Treasure asked me if I would be interested in selling my EC12 mould, to him, for use in Australia.
I have not yet got back to him to tell him <b>NO</b>, but I am happier to discuss this here and suggest an alternative which could benefit all.
I have just read that this is not a forum site and therefore assume from that comment that my proposals and thoughts are not wanted or appreciated by some.
Never the less I feel that the class is bigger than me and there may be some of those involved who will take my ideas in the manner in which they are offered, which is solely to further the class throughout the world.
As you may have read elsewhere, the class in New Zealand grew slightly out of control, until the owners association put their foot down and obtained a first generation hull, suitable for use as a master plug.
All our earlier boats were of what we call the <font color="red"><font size="2"><b>PINCHED BOW</b></font id="size2"></font id="red"> type.
The plug we obtained through Rod Carr had much sweeter, fuller and fair looking bow sections.
The sailing difference is not in outright speed, but in behaviour, especially off the wind. The boat is better mannered all around in our gusty conditions.
The new USA standard hull is, I believe, somewere between the two NZ shapes.
My question is,
<font color="blue"><font size="2"><b>Is it possible and desirable to send master plugs to Australia, New Zealand, UK and anywhere else that wants to sail the new INTERNATIONAL EC12 CLASS.</b></font id="size2"></font id="blue">
It would seem that to have all the registed builders in every country working off the same plug would solve any perceived differences and make the class truly an <font color="red"><font size="2"><b>International One Design.</b></font id="size2"></font id="red">
This is all off the top of my head and without any consultation with the current executive officers, or membership of the class in NZ. I have no Official Status anymore.
Any way, it seemed like a good idea at the time.









DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:03 am

Nice try Ian. Asking to buy the mould was a little test, to see if you were "Fair Dinkum" (Ian knows what the term is).

This worry's me no end , for you guys just don't get it.

you want us to change .... to a one design. Well guys where ever you are. Your one design, our one design or who's one design? and (and I'm sorry to bring mirth into so serious subject) I though we were sailing a one design that was not going to change. Thats what all you guys told us. Were you lying ? For was it a DEVELOPEMENT one design? Or a "tweaking" one design. And how do we know that down the track you decide to have another, seperate again, one design. You see guys there is a certain amount of trust here. We are all trusting each other to do the right thing in adopting the one design principles.

The Americans could have said , if we are going to have to do more moulding , lets go bach to a recognized bench mark. (And lets for argument sake say, the Dumas Hull). And they "tweaked" it to bring it up to modern practices. I don't think anybody would have thought any thing. But what is being done , in slightly different way is a version of the IECM hull revisited . It has all the hallmarks of it. And what still sticks in our crauls is we didn't get a vote in that either. I hope in this post we can get someone like larry or Joe?
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Postby Nautic12 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:04 am

ian an excellent idea,now we have the chance to have as you say a real IEC12,interests in Auckland NZ would jump at the chance.and i would say any other country would too,ok not every one has the $$$to
jet of round the globe,but with your idea every one could have the chance,i only hope others will pick up the ball and run with it
but they say a camel is a horse designed by a comitte ??????
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Postby Nautic12 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:17 am

<font color="red"></font id="red">i can see the padlock already !!!!
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:43 am

Tosh , do you mean PADDOCK?
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Postby IanHB » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:06 am

[:0]Its the middle of the night for the Americians so us forigners can have a little discussion on our own until the giant awakes and has his way with us. HO HO HO.[}:)]
Steve the 12 has always been a strict one design, you know that. The problem has always been that the control of that one design has not always been strict enough. Some of the moulds used in Australia & New Zealand were absolute rubbish. One of the moulds used here was made from a hull imported from England. When the hull arrived it had wrinkles all down both sides,I suppose from some heat or curing problem. The owner proceeded to smooth it all with filler and decided to make a mould from the repaired hull. He made three hulls, one for himself and the others for his mates. Sometime later, I aquired that mould and it was the one which got the class started in Christchurch. Subsequently a hull from that mould was flopped (copied) to make another mould which was used in the Nelson area to make "cheap hulls" because the sailors in that area refused to pay the price($150)for an approved hull.
My own mould which you expressed an interest in purchasing is not great either.
Like all 12s of that era there is a dip in the port side sheer and as with all the pinched bow hulls they are not symetrical.
For someone in their infinate wisdom to have considered improving the design by squeezing the bow sections unevenly beggers belief.
As each generation moved further away from the original the blemishes were magnified to a larger and larger extent.
Anyway the purpose of all my ramblings is to substantuate my contention that the hulls as developed had become anything but <font color="red"><font size="2"><b>ONE DESIGN.</b></font id="size2"></font id="red">
I was pleased to see the home of the class come to the same conclusion and do something about it.
We had some hopes that the shape that they would choose, would be, as we had believed to be, the truest to the original, that we were using.
That was not to be.
So now we, like you, have hulls that are not the accepted shape as approved by the governers and guardians of the class. There is very little in it and as I have said, nothing in the boat speed.
Stephen nobody is trying to force you to change the Australian standard.
Infact most of the YANKS don`t give a toss what you do.
It is only the few who express themselves on this forum who have an opinion and without exception, they love the class and will not let it suffer any setback on it`s climb to success.
That is <font size="3"><b>not</b></font id="size3"> a personal attack mate because I know, you also, have the love of the class as your driving cause.
Challenge #1, how can we get everyone heading down the same path?
My solution was the suggestion to upgrade to the latest shape for all of us.
When the giant awakes on a Monday morning in about 6 hours from now we may have the answer.[:X] Best wishes to you all.[}:)]













DO IT NOW, Before it`s to late
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:06 am

Tosh we're just chatting on here and we are going to get into trouble , knowing my record. I want to make friends not enemies.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:24 am

Guys everywhere . I'm not into flopping anything, I'm pure as the driven Dust. (we don't have snow). Seriously, if you want to manufacture EC12s in Australia. You have to get your intended hull checked by the National Class Co-ordinator and then apply(in Writing) to the Australian National body to be APPROVED. No 'Mickey Mouse' stuff here. Its done right or not at all and this is how it should be done. The cost of getting it approved is borne by the person wanting it.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:32 am

Ian, Your boat that you got off Lakesedge was great, you won a National Championship with it and the other boats you may have got from Australia were all very good. You know in this country we have very strick rules that our manufacturers have to abide by to keep their Manufacturers rights. So I don't believe you on saying you had shoddy ones. Nobody would have let you out of their shop with one , for they would have done their liscence. Quick smart.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:40 am

Your saying to me YOUR got a problem with shoddy moulds, boats? Well Boyo, we don't have that problem. I can honestly say that I have in all the years I have been interested in this class (about 26 years)I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAD HULL in Australia. Your having youself on.

PAUL Ian is not telling the truth.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:00 am

I don't care if the Americans don't give a Tosh a..sorry a toss about us. The sun will still come up in the morning, I think? But I think we have to be true to ourselves. And apart from one or two, I don't think we are going to be invaded by the USA for a while because we are mates. And we lurve them.

We are not competeing with them , they don't play cricket.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:02 am

is the sun up in cinsinatti?
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:19 am

Tosh , if I'm going to get into trouble , it was fun talking to you. I've enjoyed your company as a tue freind and comrade.
(Do we get in trouble if we refer to people as comrades?) and when I'm in NZ shortly we will have beer or two. Take care shipmate. Over and out.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:40 am

Well Ian , (And this will be the last) after carefully reading your tome I found you did not get a mould from Australia and consequently you don't know if it is rubbish. Secondly , what you said was that you flopped your boat and made a mould that was not good and moulded off that. Thirdly you got a plug/mould off England and moulded that and that wasn't any good. Fourthly did it occur to you that these were all illegal For you did not say anything about Manufactures liscence , etc. And now your doing us all a favour. Guys I really had it, you've finally worn me down.. I've really had my fill. Sail on Mcduff, do your worst.
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Postby Larry Ludwig » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:47 pm

Oh and in regard to the mold, the $1,000 I mentioned in the other thread is a <u>deposit</u>.

The Class owns the mold. You get your deposit back if you return the mold (in good condition). Also, their will be a licensing fee that all suppliers pay to the Association for each hull generated. Furthermore each hull must be properly registered by the supplier prior to it leaving his control.

Treasure seems to think that the new mold is something different, when it actually is not. All this WHOLE STANDARD is about.. is just that.

READ THIS CAREFULLY AS YOU HAVE MISSED THE WHOLE POINT.

Instead of having each individual manufacturer, make their OWN mold from the master plug, one manufacturer is making the molds for ALL manufacturers to use. That's right, ALL the molds, come from the SAME plug which was a pristine `95 Standard HULL. There <u>were No changes made to it.</u> They are all made by the same shop, in the same way, so that each supplier will have EXACTLY the same tool to work with.

Even in your 26 years of this Class Steve, and all your insight, your group has not taken this step to insure that all boats are this identical.

If you want in, get on the list, and Good Luck to you and your mates, because that being said, it's complete/over/done with/ finis/beendet. If you chose to go ranting about how great you have everything figured out the first time, it will be just that... ranting.
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