ec12/iec12

Chat regarding International EC12 operations, country organizations, event gathering and proposed alliances.

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Postby greerdr » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:21 am

I am looking forward to building on Bob Dudinsky's new hull mostly because he has spent so much time and effort to make the rudder install better.And it is notable that 2 other hull makers have recently come on-line.As noted by CAC,Rick West,Riechard and others the hull is true to the 95 Standard.I too do not know where Treasure came up with ballast question.Hull min/max wt is like 2.0/ 2.2 # and LWL is dictated by class rules.Do you have a picture I can reference of your C rig?

R.C.Greer
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Postby Nautic12 » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

tell me please is 933 readers of a subject a high ?
if not could another 67 please read up on the subject
and again for 933 to read the articles and only 31 reply
not a good average on people with views,come on skips
lets get one(1) ec12 we can sail world wide.
or is our own small ponds quite comfortable ?
can just imagine the pilgrim fathers reaction on reaching the
Plymouth Rock and been told you cannot sail here your boats to wide!
[;)]come along skips come to the party.
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Postby Doug Wotring » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:50 pm

Thats easy.

Form the organization.....or just join ours.

grandfather your present boats. Stop using the molds you have presently (I assume they are pre 95 standard vintage).

Contact Rick West or whoever is in charge of the US mold manufactuing and Buy one of the Current molds or one that is presently a legal mold.

other than that it is just adjusting some of the verbage and meanings in the rules
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:03 pm

Well guys it all get down to what you want in life? do you want to make it a thousand and that will be your lot in life? Or do you want every one to change to ANOTHER one design? Or do you want to go out and wet your boat? this is pretty simple question, the first one by tosh is that you sit it front of this machine. the Second , you think about doing something . I like the third choice, Sailing the bloody boat. ITS FUN as you hear the boat gurgling past, come and try it.
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:20 pm

There is this thing that keep worrying me about these different boats that the yanks keep coming up with. At my count is about 5 different EC12 boats over the years. and what the problem is , you bloke always say "this is the hull" this one will be the same for everybody. But how many times have you done it? Some of the World of EC12s has followed you is all these changes and have paid the price into total confusion.

One wonders why the boat in about 1992 circa was about the same all the way around the World but today your boat is skinny, the NZ boat is fat and our boat is in between. And you blokes have changed it again!

And I bet your saying this is it! Its got a familiar ring to it.

When I first started to Email Rick, he said they were not going to change the boat, Just tighten the rules. One has to wonder, what drives a country on to keep changing a one-design boat.... Suicide?
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Postby Doug Wotring » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:12 pm

As stated by Rick, Reichard et al...the new molds are not different. same boat since 1995.

if you take the time and look through some of the site revisions and the history of the EC-12 from the home page it clearly splels out everything.

In fact the History Narriative ties into the IEC-12 in particular

Read up Mate
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Postby Doug Wotring » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:14 pm

Here it is in case people don't like to look for info:

The EC-12 is a restricted design radio controlled model yacht class with fiberglass hulls made from near identical molds and otherwise restricted to similar construction. The result is a class of boats with similar speed potential. The goal, as in any good one-design class, is to have the skipper's tuning, tactics, and boat handling abilities determine the outcome.

Also, the class wants the newest boat competitive with the 20-year old models, and equally competitive boats from all manufacturers. A stable class organization and a stable Class Rule has allowed this to happen.







The EC-12 is approximately 5 ft. length over all, 23 lb displacement, and has a 6 ft. tall mast. As the lead-bellied replica of a full size America's Cup 12-meter, this hull shape copied from a 1962 aerodynamic test model, sails like a full-keel boat as opposed to an agile dinghy. However, the Laws of Scale dictate things happen relatively quickly on the race course with model boats. A partial day's racing at a local regatta will easily have 14 starts and many more mark roundings. Tuning, tactics, and concentration are critical to racing success. These boats tune similar to a big boat although, during the race, class rules limit trim to sheets, rudder, and an optional jib boom adjustment called a twitcher.

The heavy displacement full-keel form of the EC-12 differs from most other sanctioned monohull model yacht racing classes which are a much lighter hull design using long fin keels with bulbs for ballast. The lighter designs are faster, in most conditions. They also can be weed-catchers, restricting where you sail, such as in the Seattle area, with a milfoil weed problem. Weeds are not a problem with EC-12's, and they perform well in the light winds we often find near shore. They also are shallower draft than the typical fin keel design, although depth is usually not a concern.

Across the country from Florida to Washington state, EC-12s are actively raced all 12 months of the year. As of Feb 2002, One hundred an seventy one current AMYA members own EC-12 boats and over 1450 boats have been registered since 1971. The annual U.S. National Championship is well attended by sailors from across the country. This is organized racing with an emphasis on friendly competition. Newcomers are welcome and there is healthy willingness to share go-fast ideas.



The class is well supported through various forms of documentation and plans, all readily available to the new skipper


EC12 EARLY YEARS
Updated from an article by Rod Carr.

The original design which became the East Coast 12 Meter was a Charles Morgan design #2770. Nicknamed Eagle, the design was prepared circa 1962-63 and made into a 9/10" = 1' scale model for aerodynamic testing. The design was never considered for full size construction as a potential defender of the 1964 America's Cup, but was use to study ways of reducing the troublesome quarter wave produced from older designs. As originally conceived, the hull form was similar to Constellation and showed a reasonably full fore body, with only limited reduction in the forefoot. A "spoon" bow is shown in the original drawings, but the snub nose was extended out to form the somewhat more graceful shape we recognize today, probably by Buddy Black, who used the aerodynamic model as a plug for making the first fiberglass molds.

Of the hulls which came from that first mold, hull number 25, later called Flame, was eventually used to produce secondary molds. Production of hulls for R/C racing started in Florida and are reported in publications as early as 1968. In the late 60's, John Reynolds of Orlando, Florida began production of hulls in concert with Buddy Black. One set of molds migrated to the Washington, D.C. area in 1970, just as the American Model Yacht Association (AMYA) was forming. A few hulls were produced by Charles Black, brother of Buddy, and then the mold was consigned to Rod Carr of Chevy Chase, Maryland who began production of bare hulls doing business as Carr's Boatyard. Early efforts in organization of the class for racing accepted a number of models all of approximately the same size. Such hulls as the Hartman Olympia and Jacobson's Regatta One-Design were gathered under an umbrella and named the East Coast 12 Meter (EC-12M). The name was chosen to differentiate the approximately 5' long group of yachts from another 12 meter being produced in Newport, California and called West Coast 12 Meter at the time. The 6' long larger California boat was subsequently renamed the Newport 12 and has raced in California as a one-design since that time.

The first EC-12M Class Secretary, Rod Carr, designated Memphis, Tennessee as the site of the first annual Class Championship Regatta to be held in the summer of 1971. The group that assembled was quite a sight. It included models from the Morgan design from Florida, California, and Virginia; Hartman Olympia from Illinois; and a scratch built 12-meter variant from Maryland. When the event was over it had been won by a Morgan hull, but the scratch built one was in second place. The result was a quick coalescing of the membership and the development of a one-design rule which accepted only the Morgan plug related hulls. The manufacturer of the Olympia was assigned status of an authorized manufacturer, and to this day, the hull manufactured by Hartman Fiberglass R/C is physically closer to the original Morgan plug than that of any current manufacturer. The hull retains the fuller bow sections which were part of the original #2770 design. Over the life of the class, additional manufacturers were authorized by the AMYA Class Secretary, and they came and went as such garage operations are likely to do. The notable exceptions have been Hartman Fiberglass R/C, active since 1971, and Dumas Products, a first line model products company who has been a consistent producer and advertiser for many years.

EC-12M Manufacturers:




Hartman Fiberglass R/C: 1971-Present Dumas Products: 1976-Present
Hickman Marine: 1977-Present Robin Yachts: 1980-1983, 1999-Present
Ozmun Design: 1986-Present Brawner Boats: 1999-present
Buddy Black: 1968-1970 Reynolds Manufacturing: 1968-1983
Carr's Boatyard: 1970-1973 Model Yachts and Things: 1970-1978
Leisure Products: 1972-1974 Treasure Tooling: 1975-1978
Cork Sails: 1976-1980 Crump and Associates: 1977-1983
Bob's Boatyard: 1979-1981 William Schell: 1983-1988
Bill Low: 1987-1991 Sailcraft: 1988-1995
Puritan Yachts: 1992-1996 George Ribeiro Products: 1998- 2000
Graves Little Boatyard: 1998- 2000



Through the 1970's the class rules were stable with one notable exception. As originally promulgated, the beam of the hull was stated as a maximum measurement, but the location of the measuring point was not specified. Experiments with different bow configurations were held in Florida resulting in a narrowing of the deck beam dimension in the forward part of the hull. The experiments resulted in the gradual movement of the point of maximum beam aft. About 1973, rule clarifications were accepted that provided for maximum deck beam measurements and tolerances at specific measurement stations. The measurements and tolerances were selected to match the typical hulls being produced at the time, and established the primary control on hull shape as the Treasure Tooling Plug. The Treasure Tooling is the point of departure for about half of the manufacturers today. Thus, some present EC-12M's appear to vary in the deck shape significantly from the original plug. Careful measurements were taken of the variations caused near the water line by this topside pinching. The AMYA EC-12M Technical Committee could find no evidence the hull was distorted at the waterline. It was concluded that the basic underbody remained virtually unchanged. Simply put, the influence of the skipper on the performance of the boat is so huge by comparison to slight variations in hull shape or sail plan configurations, that no one has been able to prove the pinched hulls were faster or slower than the traditional shape. People often thought the early pinched hulls were faster, but that was later ascribed to the fact that the better skippers were more likely to get new boats and hence the skipper was the apparent cause of the performance increase. As of this writing, the issue is of historical interest only.

In 1979, the International Yacht Racing Union - Model Yacht Racing Division (IYRU-MYRD) accepted the EC-12M as the first international one-design class for model yacht racing. In 1986 the IYRU-MYRD requested that rules for all international classes be rewritten in a consistent format, and an EC-12M subcommittee was formed from five countries known to sail the boat (USA, GB, KA, KZ, and KC). A new more restrictive class rule was written for the "International" East Coast 12 Meter, as well as a constitution and by-laws. However, the AMYA membership did not ratify the ICE-12M proposal and compromise efforts also failed. The IYRU-MYRD then adopted the new ICE-12M as a new class in 1990, which lifted sanctioning of the AMYA EC-12M class. Additional efforts to a compromise by a technical committee within the IEC-12M also failed. In 1992 the IYRU-MYRD placed the IEC-12M class on a two-year probation with intention to remove sanctioning unless the issues are resolved.

In the US, we have locally and nationally continued to race under the AMYA class rule through it all.

The effort for an IEC-12M class included the creation of a new primary hull plug with the intention future hulls be built to a tighter tolerance. Existing hulls were to be grandfathered into the new class. In 1989 the IEC-12M technical committee selected the Hartman Fiberglass R/C plug as the basis of the new primary hull plug. This being considered by the IEC-12M technical committee as the nearest existing hull to the original design the class is founded upon. This eventually became the plug the Puritan Yachts mold came from. The name "Puritan" both suggests the strong resemblance to the original design and refers to the Edward Burgess designed Puritan, the 1885 America's Cup defender. The IEC-12M plug is now in Australia.

Tom Jordan somehow agreed to create this new IEC-12M plug. In researching the plug, Tom reviewed the lines of Constellation, the Olin Stephen's 1964 America's Cup defender. Among many characteristics shared by both hulls was the sharp angles or facets extending longitudinally around the keel bottom. However, these were eased somewhat in the final Jordan plug to conform more with existing EC-12M's. When efforts for an international organization stalled, Tom, as Puritan Yachts, submitted his hull to the AMYA and received approval after close scrutiny in 1992. Prior to approval, the gunwale had to be lowered 1/4" at station 20, but otherwise it is a middle-of-the-road yacht relative to AMYA-approved yachts. The newest AMYA-approved hull manufacturer, Puritan Yachts, was actually a chance result of efforts to make the EC-12M an international class. Unfortunately, after only producing nearly thirty hulls, Tom Jordan and Puritan Yachts ceased production. Tom has taken a breather from model yachts, and is pursuing other interests. I hope my friend takes only a temporary break from model yachts.

One result of the IEC-12M efforts was a tightening of the AMYA sail tolerances in 1992. This was one area where consensus was reached between the two groups. Because the racing is closer, there is general satisfaction with the standard or "A"-rig rule that eliminated significant roach area in the main. In 1993 the AMYA revised the requirements for the "B" and "C"-rigs closer to the IEC-12M. Another by product of the IEC-12M influence is the 1995 AMYA rule revision to a standard plug for all new hulls, that brings the class closer to a true one-design. The 1995 new standard class plug is based upon the middle-of-the-road Puritan.

The conversion to the 1995 new standard class plug and the compliance with the existing EC12 Class Rule has been well accepted and new hull suppliers now meet the needs of all skippers, worldwide. Since 2000, the class has seen greater growth as hulls, materials and building help has become readily available. The near future looks bright for EC12.
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Postby Doug Wotring » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:18 pm

Secretary’s Report, July 2004
By Rick West

The Hull Standard

Among other administrative duties around the first of each month, a report is made to a long list of prospective and current hull builders based on the most recent information. This information is from the fabricator and those monitoring the progress toward producing the hull standard molds. A report is made to the class, through this media, when there is good information toward progress. Unfortunately, over the last two months there has been little progress till a few days ago. During the week this report is published, RMD Marine will begin an approved production of the master mold for the hull standard. We still have a ways to go before hull production will begin by the manufacturers.



Why has it taken so long? There are many reasons besides the scope and standards this project had from the beginning. None involved had followed a path of such importance with care and documentation. One of the first requirements was that all fabrications would be rigid and heavy in lay up. This requires time to control the heat in the layering process and with curing times to preserve the specifications. This involved two daughter plug hulls and the development of the master plug. During the final stages some liberties were taken with the best intentions to make the hull a better fabrication. Unfortunately, this created changes to the hull standard. Changes and any alterations of specifications were not part of this project. Over the last month and a half, including summer vacation time, RMD Marine has produced a fabrication approved by the class for the production of the master mold that meets the preservation of the hull standard and as the project was perceived.



While it was hoped there would have been a master mold in April, there were other factors we seldom think about. This is a hobby and people have lives with higher priorities than our toy boats. We also have a need to communicate clearly and with understanding where physical meetings are not possible. We also have materials that need to be moved, reviewed and discussed for quality assurance and the scope of intentions. The project was being conducted not only across state lines but regions as well.



The class will need five identical mold sets built from the master mold. Following the curing regime mentioned above, it is reasonable to expect that shipment of production molds could begin in six to eight weeks. While this is not what everyone would like to hear, it is not in the interest of this effort to change the disciplines to speed up the process.



A review from previous reports to the class is a reminder that this project was not wanted. The class began the year 2004 without a master plug or a daughter plug suitable for a hull manufacturer to build a mold set. All daughter plugs but one had been lost. The class no longer had the check devices for new manufacturers in stock. The class has never had a master mold of the hull standard that is known to be available. One manufacturer had made a mold set from the check hull of another. The class was on a path where generations of fabrications were leading to the loss of the original hull standard begun in the mid 90’s. We were at a crossroads needing the correct path to saving our one design. When this project is completed the class will have a true one design hull with the physical assets to preserve the hull standard.

It is normal to want the newest things to come along. However, the <font size="6"><b>reminder again is that no changes to the design or specifications </font id="size6"> are part of this project</b>. None of the hulls built from the standard in place today will be disadvantaged or noticed on the water. This was part of the designs of the project. Those waiting for hull production to begin will need patience in the process of having.
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Postby Nautic12 » Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:28 am

treasure part answer to your comment,about time spent in front
of this "machine"you,r not doing to bad your self.The aim was to generate discusion on the merits of a 1 ec12 we could sail world wide
i,m not aware of any past involvment you may have had with rule or boat changes,but you seem to know the history side of the ec12
down under quite well.tell me does your nick name Treasure have any
connection to Treasure Tooling??
by the way to save time put Franks name on the cup now.
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Postby Nautic12 » Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:46 am

Thanks for the invitation Doug,Im sure Radio Yachting New
Zealand would love some affiliation between us.How do we take this futher ?
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Postby yachtie » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:20 am

Tosh (Bob) regarding NZRYA picking this up - contact me direct as Frank Linney and I have been in discussion - alternately we can have a big chin wag in Nelson next month.[8D]

Chris
NZL1 Longtack
&
NZL110 Swept Away
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:22 am

Doug , I took the trouble to read it all, for it was a fair summation indeed. The questions that come to mind are what do you consider a rule change? Perhaps a Rule clarification? Perhaps something that is "virtually unchanged", like is it unchanged or not?
An New primary Hull plug? A new standard hull configuration? A puritan boat? really guys your starting to believe your own publicity on calling something "Puritant". Believe us were pure and we are going to call our boat a Puritant, in essence it is another boat by another name. The barndoor rudder is another example Even New Zealands rule doesn't show a barndoor rudder! and the new one is "closer to true one design". Well Doug , that Dumas boat your flogging is closer than all this lot and one can't even get it measured. If you can't get that Dumas measured it is not a one design class and hasn't been for along time. And as I have told you people several times and I will repeat it here so all can understand Australia didn't mould the IEC12M. AUSTRALIA HASN'T GOT THE PLUG FOR THE IEC12M, IT was sent to NZ and never came back. Have we got it this time???

There is one other thing you people in the USA should also understand, for maybe you haven't been told. When the IEC12M rules were being written ,there was a World moremtorium on changing the Ec12 class rules, except for the USA. And guess what happened?
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:34 am

I'm quite happy to produce the historical proof of all this for lets not deal in memories or vageries!
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:11 am

Righto Tosh, We are all about wanting EC12 to race, I think. I was out today in a Howling Southerly sailing my 12 (Wednesday and Sundays)

I would be quite prepared to sail than sit here pounding this bloody key board. But do we do it to cause trouble, no, we do it to try and tell history. This class needs someone to tell the history, for what are our relations going to think in the future.... that nothing much took place?

Some of the things I hear and read on this forum , I ask myeslf , "where have these people been"? Now Tosh , your remember what happened in your country. I remember in my country and Doug remembers in His. You put it all together and we come out with something.

Some people just read whats in front of them or as someone said recently , that they only see whats on the bench in front of them.

So who is going to write the history of EC12s ... not me? But if they write it, is it just about the USA, what a poor story it would make and leave the rest of the World out. And would the people who read the history still think it is all one design? The United States is a lot of things , for I have travelled it more than once and have a lot of mates there. That place is an 'Isolationist' country and those who go there can see. This happens in micro in EC12s. The rule gets changed , adjusted, hull standardized , call it what you like it stll means CHANGING A ONE -DESIGN BOAT. So Tosh its time to call it a day and get on with the sailing. And the fatal Question Is: Are the Kiwis going to do it... can they play Cricket? Football,Hockey, Netball? who bloody know but it will be FUN DOING IT. Steve
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Postby Stephen Crewes » Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:17 am

And Doug "virtually Unchanged"is a contradiction of terms.
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