Hail to the Kiwis

Chat regarding International EC12 operations, country organizations, event gathering and proposed alliances.

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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Capt. Flak » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:13 pm

I do believe, I do believe, I do, I do, I do believe.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby deafsail » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:46 pm

I Believe

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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Capt. Flak » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:16 pm

Ok, we are at the point now where this has been a great event regardless of what happens next. On the water it is 8 to 8 and both these teams have done a fantastic job. Whoever wins it now deserves it.

And I finally got an answer to my question. They will race to 19 races if needed.

Go Team USA (even though there are only two Americans on the boat, it was built in New Zealand, driven by an Aussie, the tactician is a Brit, half the rest of the team is from NZL or AUS and there is a guy from Antigua, an Italian, and a Dutch on board, and three of its major sponsors are Swiss, Austrian, and German)
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby yachtie » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:57 pm

Full credit must go to the Oracle afterguard who have certainly improved out of sight once Kostecki was offloaded. The result either way will be a genuine test of skill. (but quietly - GO ETNZ :mrgreen: )
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Capt. Flak » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:42 pm

All I can say is WOW!. When we were down 8-1, I would never have guessed they could make that kind of comeback. When it comes to boat speed, the Americans made a huge improvement, but I don't think we can look past the race that got away. ETNZ were 4 minutes away from winning the AC when the 40 minute time limit ran out. Silly time limit really. But then you can also say that Oracle's luffing at the start did the trick enough to make the time limit come into play.

I guess we are stuck with these boats for a while now. I would like to see Italy and Sweden make some improvements and then have all four boats in a fleet race. Or maybe we can see some record breaking attempts.

Still think the race format needs to be changed. It was not traditional match racing.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Rick West » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:09 am

Hail to the Kiwis, their sportsmanship was with grace and calm words. They sailed with grit and determination to be in the hunt. It was a devastating loss to watch down to the last race but the story was told, the acceleration, time to foil and speed became a tactician's dream. I also saw a team grow close to a boat they barely knew from lack of sailing time. Spithill's handling of foiling turns grew smoother and smoother like a man starting to feel the motion of the boat through the helm in the seat of his pants. Even his posture at the helm began to showed this.

My feelings are sad and heartfelt for the Kiwis who did not deserve a historic loss like this. What I know of my friends there and of their country, this will become a mantra and they will be back to the pond again.

And for the sport; everyone knows the price needs to come down. I know the Kiwis would have moved on this. Ellison has his crowning achievement in the technology for an awesome sailing machine that created a major spectacle to watch. I'm hoping he will do the right thing and we should then see a fleet for the next Louis Vuitton.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Capt. Flak » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:30 pm

The Kiwis worked so hard for this and up until the last 8 races, had done a better job than anyone else. They also did it with a much smaller budget. It has to hurt to be so close and not get it.

That said, this does need to change. The attempt to make this a TV show with stadium seating made for a restricted course that prevented most of the passing. The silly time limits cost NZL the cup. It basically made it impossible to sail the boats in less than 10 kts and they had a ridiculous wind limit that stopped too many races before they started. I am fine with a max wind speed, but with the silly current factoring that changed the limit every race and the crappy 30 second period to check each wind gust. Add that to the strange course for match racing and it just did not work well for my tastes.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby J. Luscomb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:04 pm

My hat goes of to Team Oracle. That is some boat! I was rooting for Dalt and his boys quite honestly.

I want to see a friendly competition among nations to come next including technology, design,crew and a cap on campaign costs to include more than 3 boats.

While these 72's are fantastic to to watch, I agree with Joe on the time limit and the sailing arena. I hope to see if "34" pays of finacially, or runs about the same as the 2007 cup (which was a great ticket to see).

I hope that Team New Zealand stays together for another go at it. They are fantastic sailors and gentleman.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Rick West » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:26 pm

Maybe others noticed the improved handling of Oracle mentioned below. Apparently rumors are hot that something big is coming via a legal challenge. See http://sailinganarchy.com/
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Rick West » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:21 pm

The story is beginning to bloom with another posting at SA. It is also coincidental at a cocktail gathering at the boat last night the subject of foil trimming came up. It was accepted that crews were manually positioning the foils in some manner to deal with wind pressure changes and seas. This was particularly noticed with foiling through roundings and the bobbing that following. I have credited the Oracle team and Spithill with the learning of smoothness in this balance act with one windward foil retracted. I wonder now having watched over and over the last windward rounding to starboard when the port hull was raised unusually high and smoothly lowered when on course east. This appeared to be a statement (understood) but foolish to possible consequences when a win was assured. The delegate balance of the boat was finely managed through a large change in direction and wind pressures.

However, it still sticks in my mind Oracle's plunging bow at the first rounding after the start. Spithill blew this off to a large wave during the post race interview yet ETNZ 50 feet away and overlapped did not waver. I now think maybe something else happened.

Background: It is true that the term "Dutch Roll" was introduced in aviation with the introduction of swept wing aircraft and high forward speeds, particularly heavier aircraft. "Little Herbie." noted in the SA article is more commonly known by pilots as a Yaw Dampener in the early days. This assisting trim device was associated with auto trimming the vertical stabilizer (rudder) with sensitivity outside of pilot input and some cases corrected pilot input.

The Dutch Roll is a lateral movement of the aircraft adjacent to the fuselage that causes the plane to sway from side to side, not swivel, while moving forward. The movement tended to increase until the aircraft is reaching high angles to the horizon like attempting a barrel roll. It will not get there, as the aircraft will stall and upset.

This device is more sophisticated now and does wonderful service to high flying modern long range airliners. This device in flight handling management electronic processes precisely balance an aircraft in pitch, roll and yaw finely to produce better control to fly higher, smoother, increase speed in relation to fuel expended. It does this from onboard sensors of the environment and the ever changing balance of the aircraft through fuel burn off and trim angle changes for different flight levels. Think about that to a hydro-foiling watercraft.

Lastly, what bothers me now is not the device but "Discovery," as used in legal processes to insure all parties have the same information. The bother is that if race officials knew this device was being installed on Oracle during the finals, why was it secret and the ETNZ not advised. As to the device itself, this is a great technological addition to an incredible sailing machine for safety and performance. I have no issue with something "automatic" by not knowing the AC sailing instructions or rules. I do have issue with fairness if this comes to light and play. To blow some the best sailors in the world off the race course in a historical comeback does point to super human effort. Was it really?

BTW, the Atlanta group has a growing membership of airline pilots and they were at Sun City. They might like to comment on the facts.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Capt. Flak » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:14 pm

From what I have read, it is not a matter of ETNZ not being aware of the device. They were given the measurement certificates every time Oracle was checked and vice versa. ETNZ wanted to protest or question the device and were denied because they filed too late or something to that effect. However this thing worked, it should have been human powered. I cannot figure out how you have a device that can somehow correct for minute changes in micro seconds and yet still be human powered. I also remember there being something about auto trims not being legal. Maybe I am wrong. The foiling moths use a simple pole with a small tab the rides along the surface of the water. It is attached to a control arm that changes the elevator on the rudder foil. As the boat moves through the water, this tab goes up and down with waves and the height of the boat and makes little corrections to the foil to help keep the boat at the same level. Clearly the AC72s did not have these. Perhaps Oracle found a way to do the same thing by sensing the pressures on the foil. I don't know, just guessing.

What ever it was, the Measuring Committee did not feel it was outside the rules. Some have said, what they measured was not what was actually sailed and therefore cheating. That would need to be proved. I really would hate to see that be true.

In my heart, I want this comeback victory to be genuine. I want it to be as Spithill said it was. Just great effort to learn and improve and tweak the boat, mixed in with some extreme luck from a silly time limit.

What I saw from both boats was huge improvements in speed all through the regatta. ETNZ was going 30 percent faster up wind in the last half of the the finals than they were against Luna Rosa. Both boats were foiling up wind at sometimes 30 kts. Oracle really only passed and beat them on leg three a few times and two of those times, you could easily see a mistake by ETNZ. One of the biggest was the slow lee bow where Oracle rolled them. There were other errors, I thought, on some down winds, where it looked like ETNZ could have hooked them, instead they gibed into no wind.

Clearly Oracle made some huge improvements, but they also got extremely lucky to have avoided that one more loss. There were obvious differences in wind speed on different parts of the course and the boats each gained and loss accordingly. The stats also show that there was nothing between the boats overall. Down wind there was a virtual tie in boat speed and distance sailed. Upwind, the tide changed in Oracles favor, but they sailed lower angles and just slightly higher speeds with greater distances. As with many sailboat races, the rich get richer when out in front.

As for that nose dive that Oracle did at the first mark, they were not uncommon throughout the regatta and I saw ETNZ do just as many. It only takes one ease of the wing at the wrong time to drop your speed. It is only a couple of degrees in flight angle between diving and climbing and at 40 kts and only 4 feet above the water, that happens in a second. I would not use that example as proof of something fishy going on.

I do agree that the truth needs to come out. When Australia II finally won, they hauled out and dropped the curtain for all to see the winged keel. Oracle should drop their curtain now. Let all the teams see it and if it is good, they can all adopt it to make the racing better in the future, or they can rule it illegal. If it turns out to be cheating per the current rules, then strip them of the Cup and kick them out of the sport.

I no longer look to pro athletes to be my heroes. Lance Armstrong changed that for me. So if this turns out to be cheating, I will not be shocked. Disappointed, yes. Shocked, no.
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Re: Hail to the Kiwis

Postby Rick West » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:44 am

Thanks Joe, I have no dog in this issue and only commenting on posting from SA. You apparently have dug deeper through other sources. The time was not that important to me. I thought it was important to comment on the uses of SAS devices and their history as it applies here and on aircraft from where they came. I am familiar with them and their services in the furthering of technology and service to our machines for our welfare. I will leave it there.

In this day these devices and other machinery around us are mechanical and assisted by powered systems driven by programming through digital systems. These like we sit before operate in the nano-second world of quantum mechanics that drives them. When we push a button or key or throw a switch, we unleash the desired action instantly. This may have been known to all parties at the AC. That would be good to know openly. However, I recall nothing said about such systems in comments on the the handling of the boats related to the phenomenal rise in control of Oracle by the press reports or the broadcast coverage of the event that points to anything but superhuman physical endeavor. Two events in the last race and my impressions stated below caused me to study the last week of the finals for how they may have gotten there. I am a layman and know it and rational answers do not come easily on matters afar. My common sense of what I have seen makes me wary.

I have seen a tennis player's right forearm twice the size of his left. I have stood before a tightend in the airplane and astounded how one can become that size and image. And yes I have watched the same cycling races you have, year after year, and wanted to believe. I have complained and pinned for less legal battles in past AC events. It has started again...it is sad and my years short to hope.

I, like many, marveled and held our breath before the spectacle were were seeing. For me there was something unfair in the unbelievable history creating before me on the monitor. I have never seen a miracle but would love this to be one. I can now hope for some openness to come.

We are fortunate to have rules that dampen an arms race in the EC12 Class. We are fortunate to have credible and spirited competitors we can be friends with.
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