For Florida EC12 Association members only

[Winston]

The association is currently taking a vote on adopting a new racing format. See http://www.floridaec12.com/vote.php

It creates two "regattas" ("A" fleet and "B" fleet) with separate scoring and prizes for each. Competitors have no choice of which regatta fleet they will sail with, new-to-class and historically slow competitors will sail in "B".

Sailors in "B" will sail the entire regatta in "B" and will have no opportunity to qualify for either the Florida Cup, the NCR or the Race of Champions. They have the theoretical possibility of "moving up" to "A" in a subsequent regatta, but not necessarily so.

A hypothetical set of circumstances could have Graham Bantock win every race he was in (starting in "B" as new-to-class) and still not win the "cup", possibly not even racing in "A" all year.

I am opposed to this system being adopted. A regatta of our class boats by definition means a series of races where everyone has the same chance. Our class Policy states that "...regattas shall be open to all class members."

Please vote against this. If you have voted for it already, please go back and change your vote.

Prior to writing this I exchanged e-mails with Rick West and Joe Walter pointing out some of my observations. Neither appears to agree with my conclusions

Winston Mathews

[Capt. Flak]

This is a proposal for a two fleet regatta system intended to make the events more enjoyable for everyone and to give skippers who are not quite as skilled at the game as some a chance to compete with others who have similar skills. It gives trophies to folks who rarely see win them instead of just the same five guys at the top. It also awards bonus points to the top five in both fleets so that the top performers in the B-fleet can move up to compete in the A-fleet.

Most importantly, this is a vote by the membership of the Florida EC-12 Association. Not an edict from the Chairman. Every member of the Association is encourage to read the proposal, ask questions to me or other members of the Advisory Committee, or debate it among the members of the Association or your local club.

I welcome constructive comments from all our members. I also welcome the comments of non-Florida EC-12 Association skippers who might be thinking about coming down and sailing with us.

It must also be clear that this system is intended for the Florida EC-12 Association only. When one of our regattas is sanctioned as a Regional or National regatta, it will not be used. The EORS/P&R will always be used for such events.

As Chariman of the Florida EC-12 Association, I would prefer that all our events be sailed using the EORS/P&R system, but I must look to the whole of my group where a majority of skippers feel the playground is not all that much fun anymore. This system seeks to make it more enjoyable for all levels of competitor. I have already been approached by some who have told me they were about to quit, but if this system is adopted, they will be back.

Thanks you.

Joe Walter #24

[Gene Rosson]

Winston and Joe:
I am a new Florida EC12er who has, in the last few months, spent a lot of time and passion building a boat. It is finished and has been test sailed a few times. I have no illusions about my ability to outsail the fast guys. My boat is entirely capable but my boats' skipper may not be. But what if I get lucky one day and place high in a few heats. One would like to hope for such an eventuality, maybe more than one of those eventualities.

If the Florida Ec12 group adopts the silly assed rule that is described above, then they have created a caste system that arbitrarily assigns me, and quite a few others to mediocrity. No thanks [V]. If you decide to do it that way, I will be obliged to consider it a personal affront. I will have been judged second class citizen, before you even get to know me or anything about my ability. Can you spell snobbery ?

If enough of us bail out to another class, or no class at all, then the elite guys will have things to themselves. On the upside, regattas will be much easier to conduct because there won't be many competitors. Is this how you want to "grow" the class ?

If you want to have events where only the best sailors are involved, then promote some <u>invitational events</u>. We underclass slobs will be excluded from competition but we wont feel as much denigrated. We might come to the regatta to spectate or even help out. You relegate us, by rule to the farm leagues, then you can all go to hell and take your boats with you.


Gene

[jrflorida]

Well, Winston, I really like the P/R scoring format also, but ... I think we ought to try the A fleet, B fleet system for a season and see how it works. I have emailed Joe to death on this and I have also talked to most of our fleet here in The Villages, and it seems that we might get more sailors, and less consternation if we didn't have the 4 up 4 down after every race.

In your hypothetical, Graham would indeed start in the B fleet. After the first regatta, with his win he would be promoted into the A fleet unless all the potential A fleeters showed up and no B fleeters. Then he would again win the B fleet, and because the scores would start from the first regatta in the year and continue a current average, he would without a doubt be in the A fleet, and continuing in his winning ways, he would win the Florida Cup.

Of course Graham is not coming here so we have to look at what will be the benefit of this to our own group. We can run 2 races for each fleet, thus giving people a little extra time to pee or change their setup on the boat. We will also not have the wonderful opportunity, as we do in EORS, to sail in B, win, sail in A, do horribly, sail in B again, and maybe do well, and back in A. It will be 2 races, out and watching 2 races, then back in. I think it will work, and is worth a try.

So, even though I am a P/R type of guy, I suggest that everyone vote to give this system a try for a year, then we can take a look at fleet attrition or gain in members and decide what to do in the years ahead. If anyone wants to do P/R, Atlanta and Charleston are just up the way.

John Rowley

[jrflorida]

Gene, although it is not something I usually do, I was busy trying to type an answer to Winston, and you beat me with something which shows you are reading what Winston wrote, but not what the system is. If you look at my previous reply, and you place yourself in the Bantock situation, you will see that if you do well, you will move up regatta to regatta. If you cease to improve for a while, you will probably be racing with your peers.

It is not a perfect system, but what is. We are trying to get away from a matrix system which has many drawbacks, and move toward a system that will allow people to move up in the fleet, as their skill level increases.

I hope you have read the whole proposal on the Florida EC-12 web site, and are not basing your opinion on what Winston had written. Read the whole thing and then make up your mind.

John Rowley

[Gene Rosson]

Joe;
I regret the ill advised vitriol that I posted earlier. I owe you and others a profound apology. I offer that apology sincerely and publicly herewith.
John; you are correct. I read Winstons posting without going to the Florida web site. Ready-Fire-Aim is not my normal behavior pattern. Foolishly,it was this time. I have now read the Florida proposal carefully. It does make sense and does not discriminate.

I have attended a few in state EC12 regattas, including the NCR, as a spectator and question asker. The purpose was to observe and learn. Invariably, those with whom I conversed were, by all means, congenial and helpful. When I read what I thought I read.......Man, I was crushed. Was this deja-vu ? Please read on.

My bristling diatribe was born of some isolated experiences at yacht clubs around the southeast. (big boats) At times snobbery was in full bloom. On two occasions in particular, I had won my class fair and square. No matter, I was denied the trophy because I "was not one of them". It was made clear that I was a small town house puppy. That kind of stuff creates lasting impressions and tempts one toward snappy retorts. Insufficient excuse for my own transgressions, I Know.

Fragmented reading of the race format subject did not deserve an irritable reply. I made a big<b></b> mistake by not getting the whole story first. I resolve to excercise restraint, read carefully, and write less, henceforth. Crow is not a tasty food.


Gene

[Capt. Flak]

To All:

For the record, I responded personally to Gene's apology and thanked him for it. I also apologized for my counter attack posting and deleted it from this site before it was read by too many. I serve this class and the Florida EC-12 Association with passion and it sometimes leads me to out bursts I regret.

Thank you Gene again for your eloquent mea culpa.

Joe Walter #24

[Winston]

John Rowley

My opposition to the new regatta system is that it violates the National EC12 Class Policy found elsewhere on this website. It states:
National Sailing Schedule Policy
The schedule shall be posted on the class website before the end of the calendar year, as organizers are able to submit their information. Posted regattas shall be open to all class members...

The proposed new system creates 2 separate scheduled regattas running on the same pond on the same days. A class member may enter one and is prohibited from entering one of those regattas. It is not "Open" to all class members. Joe Walter agrees that they are two entirely separate regattas.

This (the National Policy)is in my original post. It has not been addressed at all by any of the supporters of the new system either on this forum or in private e-mails. Most are like you, they want to "give it a try."

"Voting" on this issue by members of a subgroup of the EC12 class is like a State voting to have racial segregation when the National policy is otherwise. Either we are governed by our own documents or...we have no rules.

Convince me on this forum that I am wrong on this point. Thank you.

Winston

[nquinn]

As a new member of the Florida Association and a fairly new member to AMYA racing WITHOUT any 'big boat' experience. I was impressed with both the spirit and the design of the new Two Fleet system

I selected this 'sport' as my main hobby when I retired thanks to Don Hightower, John Rowley, Ron Brown, Mike Zellanack and a hundred other gents and ladies who DO make the sport fun. It is a long term goal to be good enough to swap boats with my competitor at the Nationals in the finals of the Match Racing, and still win! (What a trip that was)

I voted Yes and thank Joe W and the others who offered the alternative to us newbies for a vote. Racing with your peers makes all the sense in the world.

Nick





Grinder

[RMDJBD]

HERE WE GO AGAIN

WE CAN GO UP AND DOWN, AROUND AND AROUND, AND NO ONE IS GOING TO BE HAPPY.

LETS DO IT THE ONLY WAY NOBODY GETS OFFENDED, LOUDER ONE MINUTE TAPE AND A LONGER STARTING LINE, SINCE WE ARE ALL ON DIFFERENT FREQ'S WE START ALL AT ONCE AND THEN EVERY ONE IS EQUAL.

THERE IS NO SYSTEM THAT IS FAIR TO ALL EXCEPT THE ONE ABOVE.

I <font color="red"></font id="red">HATE <font color="black"></font id="black">THE MATRAX, AND PROM/REG IS OKAY, BUT LETS FACE IT, WE ALL ARE SAILORS AND SUPOSE TO KNOW THE RULES, SO LETS ALL START AT ONCE.

I AM NOT GOING TO VOTE ON EITHER SYSTEM THAT WAY I CAN SIT BACK AND WATCH THE FIREWORKS.

BOB DUDINSKY
R M D MARINE

[Doug Wotring]

being an outsider (non Floridian) and having read the above posts as well as the Narrative on the FL EC-12 Site.

I see no problem with the plan......it is basically a P & R but not done every heat.....but rather every Regatta.

being a young guy from the Cold Northlands, I always Joke about all the "Old" Florida Guys......not that we do not have our share still holding out in the snow......The 2 Up 2 down is good for anyone who has issues standing all day (which can happen.....ridding the bubble for an entire regatta)

The only drawback I can see is that askipper with lesser skills will not be taking a bullit in A fleet because of pure Luck.

I do not agree that it is two individual regattas, but one regatta with two skill levels......if your riding on the edge of that cutoff envelope.......step it up and in the second regatta of the season you will move up to A fleet.

As far as Winstons comment about not Qualifying for the NCR, Champions of the FL Cup.......if your are in B fleet your not in contention anyway.

Be Open
Try it for a Season
Make the Firm decision next winter

[bodacious]

Directed to Winston. How do you propose to score 30 boats at your regatta? Is your pond large enough to support one fleet and provide seperation at the first mark? Do you have a "shoreline" that will allow the skippers to be in relatively close proximity to a true weather leg? I'm not being a smart ass about this... I'm just trying to figure out what your way of thinking is regarding your very strong opposition to the system in question.
I personally want the P/R system...... but even more than that ... I want a uniform system throughout the state. I will not attend any regattas that use a Matrix.
Oh, BTW..."A" and "B" fleets Do NOT constitute seperate regattas. That dog won't hunt! DougB [^]

[Winston]

Joe has advised there are only 2 days left to vote or comment.

For those who have stated (or silently believe) that the new system does not create separate regattas: simply making that statement does not make it so. "Calling" something a "fleet" or a "skill level" does not mean it isn't in fact a separate regatta.

For a regatta system to meet the test of being "open to all members" each regatta must stand on its own. If there were only 1 regatta run under this system there would be two "groups, fleets or regattas". This is not permitted. In 2005 13 out of the 43 people that participated in association regattas only participated in 1 regatta. Giving them a "promotion" in their next regatta doesn't solve the "openess" problem.

Bodacious, in Naples (like Lake Woe-be-gone) all the women are strong, the men are good looking, the children are all above average and our lake has everything your heart could desire. Please put us on your schedule.

Happy Holidays everyone,

Winston

[EC1210]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vote that Joe has put out to the group, was to make a fair system, and getting away from the Matrix system. We have had Regatta's for years that have had the A-B fleet. It was just set that first day of the regatta, using a Matrix system.
Also, as an option I did see "Host clubs should maintain the option of using either the EORS or the Two Fleet system."
No matter what is done, not everyone will be happy, but lets vote on it and see what most of the group would like to see.
With that, I would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holidays too !

[bodacious]

I'll be waiting for the results of the Vote before I put anybody on my schedule. Oh, what is the name of your lake ? Lake Xanadu!