Old boats made competitive

by **s vernon** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:49 pm

This is probably a dumb question, but are there any ideas about what might be done to try to make an old Treasure Tooling, Pre95std Hickman, Pre95std Robin, Dumas, etc competitive with the (wide keel) Ozmuns and the newer 95 Std boats?

On those old narrow keel boats you do not seem to be able to pack the lead pour as low as on the wider keel boats even if you do pour in new lead. My old 1980's Robin has a max keel width of 1.6 inches against a max rule width of slightly over 2 inches. I believe that even with a light deck and low mounted electronics the boat would still be at a distinct disadvantage in standing up (righting moment) in anything more than a mild breeze.

It just seems like a shame for there to be hundreds of hulls out there that are no longer competitive and with no prospect of possibly becoming competitive. With the cost of new bare hulls rising - but still well worth the money - I just wonder if there are any thoughts.

Scott

by **kahle67** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:59 pm

Scott,

I helped a fellow club member (Rick Gerry) re-build an old Dumas hull a couple of years back. We made sure we removed as much weight out of the hull as we could and still be legal. After grinding out access fiberglass (mostly from sloppy building in the past), Rick was able to get the hull down to slightly over 2 1/2 lbs. After installing an 8 1/2 oz. deck, we managed to pour about 17 lbs of lead in it. I have also been able to get about the same pour into an older Hickman hull.

Yes, the new '95 standards can hold around 19 lbs, two pounds or so more than the older hulls with narrow keels. In theory they will stand up better in a breeze but Rick has left many of the top skippers in the class standing on the shoreline scrathing their heads. He actually won a regatta, with an extremely competetive field, in a big breeze using an "A" rig when everyone else had switched to a "B".

It is nice to be ready for all conditions, but the fact of the matter is that in most cases, we end up sailing at venues with medium to light and variable air. In light breeze, the properly built older boats may even excel.

To sum it up, strip the old boats down to the bare hull. Remove all excess weight, striving for the minimum 2.2 lbs. (or as close as you can). Build a light deck and pour the ballast to the maximum waterline. Don't discount all of the older girls yet as some may have plenty of whoop-ass left in them.

Reichard Kahle

by **s vernon** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:47 pm

Reichard,

I knew some of the details of Rick Gerry's boat but that really spells it out in detail. Thank you.

I have weighed (?)(not accurately weighed) and tank floated my Pre95 Std Robin and I figure it is about 22 lb at 43 inch waterline. That is probably about what Rick's boat weighs too - about 2 lb less than a 43 inch wl 95 std generally might weigh. Hard to believe that the old boats displace 2 lb less water at a given waterline length.

Your numbers give me something to shoot at and some encouragement when I do rebuild that boat. It might become a light to medium air demon instead of the light air flyer that it is now.

It is amazing what Rick has done and can do in races with his boat.

Scott

by **Capt. Flak** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:45 pm

I have a 28 year old Treasure Tooling hull with a very heavy Dumas deck and about a pound of paint. I stripped the deck, cut off the molded splash board and opened up the hatch to the maximum allowed dimensions. Then I made a new light wieght hatch cover.

I removed all the old radio equipment and heavy Osmun winch. I made a new, lighter radio board with an RMG Smatwinch. And put it as low in the hull as I could. Putting a bow block in was another story I'll save for later.

I never repoured the lead, although that would help the boat a lot, as the current pour looks like it was shaped by a hammer.

I also built a new rig using all Zellanack parts and put a good suit of sails on.

I have 7 trophies with that boat. More than with my new 95 standard. She sails great in the light stuff and even better in the heavy air, much like Rick Gerry's Dumas. It is in the middle of the range that the 95 standard is too much for her.

I think the narrower keel and girth section makes her very fast in the light air but not much above 3-4 knots. But as the winds climb higher and heeling angles increase the hull comes back to the top of the speed chart.

I think the stiffer 95s are best in the mid range winds, but as they begin to heel too far, their hulls have too much drag.

I plan on doing a complete rebuild of my Treasure Tooling hull one of these days. New deck and new lead, and probably a new rudder.

I think she will be very competitive then.

Joe Walter #24

by **bigdog** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:38 pm

I also have a 25+ year old boat. The lead shot is epoxied in the keel cavity. All attempts to remove it have not gone well. The stuff acts like it's there to stay. Any thoughts on how to get it out?

Scott ec-12 #170, 270, 1578

by **Chuck Buzek** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 9:13 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigdog

I also have a 25+ year old boat. The lead shot is epoxied in the keel cavity. All attempts to remove it have not gone well. The stuff acts like it's there to stay. Any thoughts on how to get it out?

Scott ec-12 #170, 270, 1578
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Scott, I've been there done that, the only way you will be sucessful is with a hammer and chisel, Do not I mean do not try to lossen the beeswax up with a propane torch the smell and smoke will gag you.
Good luck you will have a garage full of lead shot rolling around.

~~Chuck Buzek

by **bigdog** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:15 pm

Chuck, you weren't kidding about the lead shot rolling around the floor. The hammer and chisel seem to be working. The boat has a beautiful mahogany deck, I hope I can do this without having to replace it. The deck is thin enough so that I think I can still come in with a reasonable hull-deck wieght. How about some thoughts on what that should be?

Scott #170,270 1578

by **bigdog** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:22 pm

Sorry about that last question, I think the answer is a couple of post' back.

Scott

by **Richard** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:39 am

hi all

I`m new to all this . Also have what look`s to be a Dumas hull.

Removeded all lead and striped paint.

Still have to remove mounts for radio board.

Deck still on, undesided to remove or leave on.

Any thougts on lead pour with orginal deck on.

Not much snow here in TN.

Have new hardwear from Zehanack.

Richard W Marsh JR

by **Ed Sidders** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:25 am

Comments about removing epoxy--I have used a HEAT GUN , not a hair dryer, to soften and remove epoxy. I also use it to warm epoxy to a thin liquid state much like water for application over fiberglass cloth , this also accelerates the cure time. My heat gun was made to shrink model airplane covering material. Others are made for softening/removing paint, shrinking "heat shrink" tubing etc. AS ALWAYS - THINK AHEAD and BE CAREFUL with HEAT and FUMES.(Disclaimer) USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!
Good Luck Ed Sidders

Old boats made competitive

Old boats made competitive

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